radial deviation

[RayR]

I would have thought the follow through pic on the right would be extension. If you are happy with the pic on the left at contact, I'm happy. I view the pic on the right as a result, not a teach.

Well yes and no. It's very possible to be lined up at contact but cut the swing off too early. Believe me I know.

The front arm could be off a bit (under the plane) and while the contact will look OK - after contact the front arm will fold and cut off the follow through.

So, in a game situation balls on the outside part of the plate or off speed will present major problems.

I see the extension after contact a result, but also a teach. And certainly a check point in your bp swing.

 

[lhowser]

Originally Posted by Mark H
I'd still like definitions of extension from those who use the term. Stop this hitter at contact MPEG4 8 of 16, Fastpitch Does she get extension?

Looks like it to me.

I believe players extend in large part because the have no choice. It is not a swing mechanic. If they didn't extend they would have to continue to rotate around the spine which is impossible unless you are bugs bunny.

 

[Hitter]

I would have thought the follow through pic on the right would be extension. If you are happy with the pic on the left at contact, I'm happy. I view the pic on the right as a result, not a teach.

Mark

I would like to disagree...when the girls hit the ball they usually give up when they feel contact and pull up, give up, mainly with the top hand rolling over or being weak and not continuing and there was no flex in the front knee no weight shift. I know you are proponent of frame counting and I have never used it and have 70 plus kids in college and 14 at D1. These are not MLB kids, they are females seeking to play at the next level and will not play with AP however one played with the Racers. I have also had four play in the Frontier League as my boys are taught exactly like my girls. This is why we also do not line up the finger knuckles in our grip, especially in the top hand. AP does however and Bustos does not. I do not use a heavy bag just for this reason as we do not want to them stopping or pausing. This is where my martial arts training helped me to understand flowing and changing direction verses stopping and shifting. We do have a weighted ball sequence when hitting...we hit a tennis ball, a hard ball, softball and a special weighted soft ball (11 ounces) I brought back from China. If offers resistance at contact so we power through the ball on each swing. I am repeating my self however they do not JUST get to extension and respectfully it makes no difference what you tell them or how much video you show them. Until they feel it the situation will still be talked about until the pro verbal cows come home! The hand over drill gets them to feel it and that is what the bottom hand actually does and then we couple it to the top hand next. Dana is trying this technique now and a grip change is required. We use the BIG girls grip not AP's! The entire swing is a coupling, uncoupling, unhinging during a ballistic movement of changing angles and direction during momentum shifts...which frame should I feel what and how can you get me to feel it coach? I just want to play! I learned from one of the best in the world...learn to describe things in measurable and observable terms that reasonable people can agree upon and then how could we test for it! His name is Dr. W. Edwards Deming, from his book, Out Of The Crisis and he changed Japan's manufacturing techniques and you can Google to establish his involvement. I worked at GE and met him 9 times and attended his seminars and used it in developing our hitting process.

I use Dick Fosbury as a prime example, the Fosbury Flop, he challenged the high jump paradigm's of high jumping by going over the bar backwards. The kid's of today do not know the difference until I tell them the story and do not think it was ever done any other way...just my thoughts

How do you get balanced and how can you test for it?

Thanks Howard

 

[Mark H]

Well yes and no. It's very possible to be lined up at contact but cut the swing off too early. Believe me I know.

The front arm could be off a bit (under the plane) and while the contact will look OK - after contact the front arm will fold and cut off the follow through.

So, in a game situation balls on the outside part of the plate or off speed will present major problems.

I see the extension after contact a result, but also a teach. And certainly a check point in your bp swing.

An indicator/check point yes. IME, if you are right at lag, you have a very good chance of being right through contact. After contact, the ball is gone. But if you look bad after contact such as the ball deflecting the bat or some such, you can bet something bad happened before contact that caused it.

 

[Mark H]

Mark

I would like to disagree...when the girls hit the ball they usually give up when they feel contact and pull up, give up, mainly with the top hand rolling over or being weak and not continuing and there was no flex in the front knee no weight shift.

I would say the give up happened before the contact they were anticipating but that's a comment on reality rather than a teaching comment. I have no problem with your viewpoint on not giving up the swing from a teaching standpoint.

I know you are proponent of frame counting and I have never used it and have 70 plus kids in college and 14 at D1.

While I am a proponent of frame counting I have never said it was a necessity to accomplish any certain level of success but rather a useful and objective tool. A deceased ML scout said he would never turn in a kid who had more than a four frame swing. Others pointed out the need to be able to watch ball flight for longer before committing your swing. All this makes sense to me and was proven out over the years as I counted frames on successful and lesser hitters. I assume your instruction results in quick swings from first movement of the bathead into the swing plane till contact based on your students' success.

This is why we also do not line up the finger knuckles in our grip, especially in the top hand. AP does however and Bustos does not.

Agreed.

I do not use a heavy bag just for this reason as we do not want to them stopping or pausing.

I'm fine with that though I myself have found it useful. I understand your thinking on this and it may be quite valid though I've seen ULL hitters hit dingers on check/stop swing/no follow through. Not that he teaches that as a long term goal but rather did it as a short term necessity for some of his hitters.

I learned from one of the best in the world...learn to describe things in measurable and observable terms that reasonable people can agree upon and then how could we test for it! His name is Dr. W. Edwards Deming, from his book, Out Of The Crisis and he changed Japan's manufacturing techniques and you can Google to establish his involvement. I worked at GE and met him 9 times and attended his seminars and used it in developing our hitting process.

I'm familiar with Deming-been reading Goldratt more recently-and the need to be able to measure something to be able to improve it. Frame counting speaks to this.

How do you get balanced and how can you test for it?

Thanks Howard

Let's not get off into balance and it's definition till another thread.

 

[Hitter]

I would say the give up happened before the contact they were anticipating but that's a comment on reality rather than a teaching comment. I have no problem with your viewpoint on not giving up the swing from a teaching standpoint.





While I am a proponent of frame counting I have never said it was a necessity to accomplish any certain level of success but rather a useful and objective tool. A deceased ML scout said he would never turn in a kid who had more than a four frame swing. Others pointed out the need to be able to watch ball flight for longer before committing your swing. All this makes sense to me and was proven out over the years as I counted frames on successful and lesser hitters. I assume your instruction results in quick swings from first movement of the bathead into the swing plane till contact based on your students' success.



Agreed.



I'm fine with that though I myself have found it useful. I understand your thinking on this and it may be quite valid though I've seen ULL hitters hit dingers on check/stop swing/no follow through. Not that he teaches that as a long term goal but rather did it as a short term necessity for some of his hitters.



I'm familiar with Deming-been reading Goldratt more recently-and the need to be able to measure something to be able to improve it. Frame counting speaks to this.





Let's not get off into balance and it's definition till another thread.

Mark go with me on this as only a teaching point....

Thanks Howard

 

[Mark H]

Mark go with me on this as only a teaching point....

Thanks Howard

I'm certainly inclined to because you have real students. Lots of them and successful ones at that. Which "this" are you referring to?

 

[Hitter]

Mark

I am trying to make a point of balance as to measurable and observable and how to test for it. It is the first thing we teach our students and it sets the foundation from which we build upon.

Thanks Howard

 

[ssarge]

I am trying to make a point of balance as to measurable and observable and how to test for it. It is the first thing we teach our students and it sets the foundation from which we build upon.

Howard:

"Balance" is one of those words that I think comes across differently to hitters than the way I intend it.

For example, during the stride, ALL of a hitters weight is on the back foot, obviously. Well before contact, MOST (or all) of the weight is on the front foot, as evidenced by the fact that the rear foot is sometimes in the air, sometimes dragging forward like a legal (LOL) pitcher just before release, or at the least, up on the rear toe, ballet-like.

Is that balanced?

Yeah, in the context of hittinmg it is. But NOT what the word means to a hitter when I just drop it on her as a desirable attribute of the swing.

I like your liquid in a bottle analogy, and have already used it with a kid. To good result, and I will use it in the future.

But I do find balance to be a nebulous concept, when people hear the word and apply the typical English useage to it. At the least, when used to describe the swing, it is a description of a fluid, not a static, position.


None of which at all negates your point about the importance of balance, or argues against you teaching it as a foundational tenent. I do, too.

But as with so many other concepts in the hiting world, it is easy to demonstrate in person, and hard to DESCRIBE with a single word. Which of course, highlights the importance of working with kids in person.

Best regards,

Scott

 

[straightleg]

I would have thought the follow through pic on the right would be extension. If you are happy with the pic on the left at contact, I'm happy. I view the pic on the right as a result, not a teach.

Mark
I surely dont have as many as howard, but some of the girls and boys I help will fold the lead arm after contact.

We do a few reverse one arm swings and I have a target area on the wall /ceiling that they try to plane through.
Then we go back to tee swings.

It sounds different off the bat and when they look at me and smile I know they feel it.


Straightleg