Umps are human (I guess)

[Agcy]

I have a question for the umpires on the batters standing too close to the plate (or, I guess, standing anywhere that is out of the box).

Is the proper procedure for an umpire to tell the batter to move before the pitch is thrown? Is this one of those things where you say nothing and apply the penalty after the pitch?

Is it appropriate for the catcher to point out if a batter's toenails are scraping the edge of the plate? In the past, I've instructed catchers to ask if she's too close, but I'm not sure that's the best way to handle it.

As for HBP in the river: I imagine this is pretty difficult to catch, and as long as the batter isn't sticking a leg/elbow out or actually over the plate, it's probably not getting called too often.

As I thought through this, I would ask the batter to move back and/or redraw a line for them. If they refuse or take longer than 10 seconds after not listening to me, I'd call a strike and start the next pitch.

I tell my catchers to respectfully point it out to the umpire. If he won't do anything about it, I have them tell the umpire that if we throw in the river we expect the batter to try to get out of the way.

As for getting hit by pitch in the river, from NFHS:

A pitched ball that is not entirely within the batter's box, not swung at nor called a strike, touches the batter or her clothing. If no attempt to avoid being hit by the pitch is made, the batter will not be awarded first base unless it is ball four. (8-1-2c)​

PENALTY: If the batter made no attempt to avoid the pitch which is not entirely in the batter's box or she obviously tried to get hit by the pitch, the ball is dead. The pitch is a ball or strike depending on its location and the batter remains at bat unless it is strike three or ball four. Base runners advance only if forced.​

This happened to us a few years ago - girl got HBP in the river without trying to avoid and she got first base. I watched the same girl in the State Finals pull the same stunt in the first inning. However, when she tried it again in the 4th inning, as she was trotting to first, the umpire pulled he back to the box, called a ball and mad her continue her at bat. I am guessing that the opposing coach said something to the Umpire after her first at bat and he was looking for it the second time.

Some players/coaches/teams use these techniques to their advantage because most umpires won't make the call against them if they do.

 

[mmeece]

Well seeing an Umpire who made the call on a tag play while they were trying to look through the body of the runner or fielder to actually see the tag would warrant getting a second opinion. But not all umpires do...maybe because those are the ones that have X-ray vision

Having a bad angle and not being able to see an element of the play (the tag) would definitely be a reason to ask for help.

 

[Agcy]

Since the rule says batter can just stand in the way (and can turn into pitches) and be awarded first base for getting hit by pitches they otherwise could try to move out of the way of (which benefits the on-base averages) pushing that opportunity to its potential will continue to happen.

If I read you correctly that isn't quite true. Per NFHS: For any ball not entirely over the batter's box, the batter must try to get out of the way. If they don't, it is a dead ball strike/ball and the at bat continues.

 

[Agcy]

Having a bad angle and not being able to see an element of the play (the tag) would definitely be a reason to ask for help.

Agreed, but I've seen times when they won't. Those are the ones I am annoyed at.

 

[Cougars]

If I read you correctly that isn't quite true. Per NFHS: For any ball not entirely over the batter's box, the batter must try to get out of the way. If they don't, it is a dead ball strike/ball and the at bat continues.

Not that it happens a lot, and maybe our team has just had bad luck with it, but multiple times this season umps have awarded first base on a hit by pitch where both my catcher and pitcher tell me after the inning that the batters elbow/knee were actually over the edge of the plate. It just seems like the umps won't call the strike in that situation.

 

[EdLovrich]

Specific examples:
- The runner at first, umpire next to 2nd baseman, short pop fly in front of 2nd base where the 2nd baseman caught it/dropped it just as it hit the ground. From my vantage point, the umpire was looking through the defender to see if she caught it or trapped it. A second opinion would have helped.
- Any time the umpire is not at 1st, it is really hard to see if the 1st basemen pulled her foot. I am not saying that every play should be questioned, but if it is 'close', it doesn't hurt to ask the PU if they have anything to add to the call.

Unless I am mistaken, and if I am understanding the situation correctly, i.e. the fielder is coming towards the plate to make the catch; this is the PU call to begin with.

 

[radness]

If I read you correctly that isn't quite true. Per NFHS: For any ball not entirely over the batter's box, the batter must try to get out of the way. If they don't, it is a dead ball strike/ball and the at bat continues.

The point is that the batter in some ruling venues batter does not have to make an attempt to move out of the way. Then EVEN PURPOSELY they are clearly leaning over the line or turning body over the line.
This is definitely something that can be seen from behind the plate.

So all batters have to do is erase that line, blur the rule stipulation even more, and purposely take advantage of the situation.

Also think that because the rules are different in different softball venues, that makes it harder for umpires to know all the rules.
It makes it harder for the coaches, fans and players to understand the rules are different.
And yet Again that blurs the line even more where people players will take advantage.
Especially when umpires don't enforce rules.

 

[peter.kottke]

The point is that the batter in some ruling venues batter does not have to make an attempt to move out of the way. Then EVEN PURPOSELY they are clearly leaning over the line or turning body over the line.
This is definitely something that can be seen from behind the plate.

So all batters have to do is erase that line, blur the rule stipulation even more, and purposely take advantage of the situation.

Also think that because the rules are different in different softball venues, that makes it harder for umpires to know all the rules.
It makes it harder for the coaches, fans and players to understand the rules are different.
And yet Again that blurs the line even more where people players will take advantage.
Especially when umpires don't enforce rules.

There’s definitely big variability in the rule depending on sanction. I don’t know NCAA rules, but for youth, USA is the strictest stating that first base is only awarded on hit by pitch if the batter attempted to avoid being hit. NFHS (which governs this aspect of PGF play in addition to high school play in my state, GA) is a sort of middle ground: the batter has to attempt to avoid being hit unless the ball is entirely within the batters box. USSSA just says that the batter can’t intentionally move to be hit. All of them would have the umpire call a strike if the batter were hit by a ball in the strike zone or that would have entered the strike zone. All that being said, in my experience the vast majority of umpires will award first base on every hit by pitch no matter the sanction, (unless the batter swings - that is usually called correctly- in fact most umpires we’ve had correctly call it as a dead ball strike if the batter swings and the ball contacts their hands before the bat).


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[radness]

There’s definitely big variability in the rule depending on sanction. I don’t know NCAA rules, but for youth, USA is the strictest stating that first base is only awarded on hit by pitch if the batter attempted to avoid being hit. NFHS (which governs this aspect of PGF play in addition to high school play in my state, GA) is a sort of middle ground: the batter has to attempt to avoid being hit unless the ball is entirely within the batters box. USSSA just says that the batter can’t intentionally move to be hit. All of them would have the umpire call a strike if the batter were hit by a ball in the strike zone or that would have entered the strike zone. All that being said, in my experience the vast majority of umpires will award first base on every hit by pitch no matter the sanction, (unless the batter swings - that is usually called correctly- in fact most umpires we’ve had correctly call it as a dead ball strike if the batter swings and the ball contacts their hands before the bat).


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imo
Make an attempt to move out of the way make so much more sense than created rule that people should accept injury to get on first base.

For goodness sakes the obstruction rule has been applied that in particular catchers can't get go for the ball that their body might be getting in the way of the runner.
(pass foul line)
Makes no sense that it's okay to stand/move into a pitch to get hit by the pitch and be awarded for taking an injury to get on first base.

One rule reduces risk of injury while the other rule rewards getting injured when the player may not have to.

 

[MoJo]

Once again I have to complain about Mr. BLUE.

Surprising that today's ump is calling illegal pitches in a 12u game.

BUT.....isn't applying a penalty. No ball to the batter or bases to base runners.

USA Softball tournament


I will add that ump has called other things you usually don't hear often: leaving base early, batter bunting while standing on home plate