Controversial pitching coach quote

Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch

Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.

radness

Possibilities & Opportunities!
Dec 13, 2019
7,270
113
I came across this on Facebook yesterday and thought I'd post it here for you guys. The 'author' is Jason Iuli-Kinsey of San Diego. Jason pitched fastpitch softball from his teens and well into his 30's, he did pitch in the "major" division of men's fastpitch (which is the top "classification") The last 2 or 3 days he's been making some very interesting, thought provoking statements on Facebook about pitching coaching. I've known Jason for 20+ years, we are friendly but not "Friends" we don't send each other Xmas cards or anything. But, he's got a big legion of followers in CA. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this or his opinions, just wanted to share and read you discussion.

Image may contain: text that says 'The 4 things we need to stop trying to teach... 1) INTERNAL ROATATION 2) FOREARM FIRE 3) BRUSH CONTACT 4) FOLLOW THROUGHS PowerhouseMechanics''The 4 things we need to stop trying to teach... 1) INTERNAL ROATATION 2) FOREARM FIRE 3) BRUSH CONTACT 4) FOLLOW THROUGHS PowerhouseMechanics'


Hear me out. I am not saying these things do not exist. What I am saying is, these things are naturally occurring movements within the pitching motion. Teaching pitchers to intentionally create these movements are arbitrary and very confusing. ⠀

Why should we stop teaching I.R? ⠀
First of all, the term in itself is confusing. I don't know why we make it so complicated. I.R, is simply how the joint rotates open and closed, but I digress..IR is one of the most natural things the arm will create. When the arm transfers from back to down, the shoulder joint will naturally open itself. Watching all of these videos of kids trying to "create" IR is causing them to over rotate. Not only are they not able to get back behind the ball on the closure of the joint, its almost impossible to create cuts.⠀

Why should we stop teaching "brush contact"?⠀
Brush contact is a reaction that is a result of how we pull from an open shoulder joint. When the shoulder joint is open, it will pull the shoulders back, placing the elbow behind the ribs. When pulling down the arm, the elbow is already in position to make contact with the hip. When the elbow makes contact with the hip, it will naturally trigger the shoulder joint too close. Too many kids are forcefully driving their elbows into the sides of their body and injuring themselves.⠀

Why should we stop teaching "Forearm Fire"? ⠀
The forearm is activated because the fingers are pulling into the wrist. By not putting attention into the fingers, and putting focus on the contraction of the forearm, creates peeling or rolling the ball off their fingers. Why would we teach kids to let the ball roll off of the fingers? Use the fingers to drive energy through the ball. ⠀

Why should we stop teaching follow throughs? ⠀
This is how "Hello Elbow" started. Pitchers were taught to "intentionally" create a follow through, but follow throughs are not intentional. Follow throughs, are a direct result of how we use the forearm. By teaching kids to intentionally follow through, it also teaches them to bypass the forearm and substitute a bicep pull or even worse, to just push the ball. ⠀

STAY FOCUSED ON MOTIONS THAT ARE INTENTIONAL
Was just thinking it might be FUN to come up with more controversial statements!

1. Stop talking about the pitchers feet. Pitchers dont use their feet to pitch.Talking about feet is irrelevant.They do nothing to aid in mechanics. If we think about our feet will be misguiding the brain to not think about legs. Therefore stop talking about the feet. Even though we stand on our feet, they have nothing to do with stride or landing.

Any other controversial suggestions? ;)
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
More warmed over slop.

The "it is a natural movement" is a load of crap. People don't walk down the street spinning their hand around their shoulder at 65MPH (or, in Bill's case, 85 MPH). People don't try to throw a 7 ounce ball through a 4 inch by 4 inch spot. And, I've yet to find anyone "in the wild" putting backspin on a softball while attempting to throw a ball 65MPH.
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
More warmed over slop.

The "it is a natural movement" is a load of crap. People don't walk down the street spinning their hand around their shoulder at 65MPH (or, in Bill's case, 85 MPH). People don't try to throw a 7 ounce ball through a 4 inch by 4 inch spot. And, I've yet to find anyone "in the wild" putting backspin on a softball while attempting to throw a ball 65MPH.

For the record, Bill never hit 85. Probably low 80's on my best day but not every single pitch like Adam Folkard, Peter Meredith, etc. They are inhuman. I truly took my cues from Mike White as a kid: pitch smarter not harder. I wish you guys could have seen or know how good he was in his heyday. He's on Mt Rushmore of pitchers (softball or baseball). I'm sure I annoyed the hell out of him as a teammate constantly sitting next to him on planes, in the dugout, just picking up whatever he said even if it seemed mundane at the time. But Whitey would talk pitching all day, all flight long, or whatever the case may be......... if you're buying.
 
Jun 6, 2016
2,714
113
Chicago
More warmed over slop.

The "it is a natural movement" is a load of crap. People don't walk down the street spinning their hand around their shoulder at 65MPH (or, in Bill's case, 85 MPH). People don't try to throw a 7 ounce ball through a 4 inch by 4 inch spot. And, I've yet to find anyone "in the wild" putting backspin on a softball while attempting to throw a ball 65MPH.

What's "natural" is that the forearm wants to internally rotate (otherwise we'd walk with our palms facing forward, and anybody who does that is an alien). What's not natural, from my experience trying to teach the basics and watching dozens of rec league pitchers of all ages, is a windmill pitching motion in which the arm naturally does what all of us here agree it's supposed to do. It's just not. I've seen a couple girls who come pretty close to figuring it out, though I don't think they really know what they're doing. But most are bowling. Others are clearly getting some low level HE instruction.

So I do think it's important to teach IR (and with it brush) because most kids will not just naturally do that. That said, there might be a way to get IR/brush without directly teaching those concepts. You might not really have to talk about brush to make it happen, though I suspect most kids are going to try to avoid having their arm hit their body unless you tell them it's a good thing.
 

radness

Possibilities & Opportunities!
Dec 13, 2019
7,270
113
These approaches to rethinking verbage
(or building a better mousetrap) will tend to collect followers who will inturn start debates on who is correct or not.
However its not a debate on how to pitch.
Its a conversation on how to communicate it.
Which not one way will reach everybody anyway.

imo does not prove its better or correct...
to speak it a different way.
Its just communicating from a different approach.
 
Last edited:
Jun 8, 2016
16,118
113
More warmed over slop.

The "it is a natural movement" is a load of crap. People don't walk down the street spinning their hand around their shoulder at 65MPH (or, in Bill's case, 85 MPH). People don't try to throw a 7 ounce ball through a 4 inch by 4 inch spot. And, I've yet to find anyone "in the wild" putting backspin on a softball while attempting to throw a ball 65MPH.
Not knowing anything about pitching, I guess the question I have is if you teach everything else that is necessary to pitch well, in your experience what will most kids do with regards to arm motion?
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
42,830
Messages
679,468
Members
21,443
Latest member
sstop28
Top