radial deviation

[Bouldersdad]

Reading this thread front to back i have a few questions............... are the guys here teaching kids?......... girls especialy?......... How does it work out talking to a 10 year old about scap loading. reading all the clinical and scientific data is fantastic ..but how in the world do you relate and transfer this information to a kid without melting her cortex. I know of one Instructor on here, That works with the best Female hitter in the world and hes pretty much her mouthpiece.
Ive had the pleasure and privilage to work with Hitter and Bustos for the last 5 years. First as a parent then as an instructor. let me start by saying she does not use a MLB swing especialy if she has to push what shes already pulled to get to contact...... do your selves a favor....... pick Howards brain about how to properly teach hitting to a female child or young lady........ There is a difference between that and teaching boys. Ive done countless hitting clinics with the 2 of them and the one thing above all else that remains constant is their ability to make it simple for kids to understand, feel and fix.
For a girl to get a womans perspective on how to hit is extremely important ... I diddnt realise how much so until a few month ago when my daughter got to spend some hitting time with the Barry Bonds of female hitters...... I sat back and listend to the conversation and was pretty much floored by it. This is the knowledge that her and Hitter have shared with so many countless other kids.......
Find their clinics get in front of Bustos and Hitter and bring them your questions . set aside petty pride about taking advice from a female and just try it......... I guarentee you it will be the best money you will ever spend to prepare your daughters for the next level

Tim

 

[Mark H]

As repeated many times, the discussions aimed at understanding are a much different thing than the cues and methods used to teach a kid. And no, some of the guys posting on here don't apparently teach anyone.

 

[Hitter]

The bat is torqued throughout extension. but because I teach contact deeper in the zone than most. along with an inside contact point to stay with the ball longer and provide a cleaner crisper release off of the bat it creates greater energy transfer from the bat to the ball.

Not sure if you have read this paper however I found it interesting.... http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/PUBLICATIONS/44.BatSwing.pdf

When teaching we have our home plate marked with what we call a window of opportunity with two blue line that are 12.5 inches deep. We train our hitters to work in this window to keep the ball in play. the back of the window starts 4 inches forward of the back corner of home plate. For drill work we measure off from the back corner of home plate with the lead foot and the tee is set about 4.5 feet from the net two inches in front of home plate so the ball should go up the middle based on where the tee is positioned. We have two lines set at 51 and 39 inches horizontally and a line in the center of our net. If I remember correctly the 51 inch mark is 26 degrees and the 39 inch line is 10 degrees. We feel if we are in this area we are doing well while working off the tee. Depending on the balls depth in box (where the tee is located) we always want to release the bat at a right angle and rotating our hips as needed depending on where the ball is. The side spin in my opinion comes from pulling off, over rotating, front side opening and it will be a little different for each hitter. Simply pulling on a rope gives the hitter the feel and concept and releasing the wrist and rotating as needed. When we hit the ball into the net the concept to become reality based on where the ball is being directed by the hitter is usually understood better by the student.

 

[HittingGuru]

I'm not asking about what you teach. I'm trying to facilitate an understanding between you and Board since it sounded like the two of you were discussing apples and oranges. Torquing through extension would not be a straight line top hand push. But let me step back now and the two of you continue your conversation.

I happen to think torquing is consistant with a top hand push without it you have weak rotational forces that only apply maximum energy on balls that are pulled down the line or foul. both examples of Bonds and Puhols appear to be very inside pitches. With both shoulders or upper body having lots of rotation. typical of Bonds not so of Puhols. Thats why most teams defensed Bonds strictly on the right side of the field.

 

[BoardMember]

The bat is torqued throughout extension. but because I teach contact deeper in the zone than most. along with an inside contact point to stay with the ball longer and provide a cleaner crisper release off of the bat it creates greater energy transfer from the bat to the ball.

HG......I have ZERO problem with your explaination above.....

Maybe when you were speaking of "the straight line shove" you weren't really speaking about something you "teach"......but more like something that happens do to momentum and rotational forces at hand being released into contact.......

If that's the case......we're good!

I was/am a little confused because you had previously mentioned "release of energy".......Then you noted this "straight line shove" move a hitter should make.........

These are NOT mutual IMO........One represents a high level swing.....and the other represents a low level "push" into/through contact......

You also mention a "deeper contact zone" above.......Which again would make no sense to ALSO advocate a "straight line shove".......

If I were you I'd drop the "straight line shove" analogy all together.......

Hope that makes sense.......

Regards.........

 

[BoardMember]

Inside/Outside......Doesn't matter IMO.......The only thing that matters is WHEN the top hand is "released".........

You excused Bond because of the inside location.........

Take a close look at this OUTSIDE clip of Bonds.........And specifically the top hand/arm........

I see no "straight line shove" here do you?.........

 

[HittingGuru]

Inside/Outside......Doesn't matter IMO.......The only thing that matters is WHEN the top hand is "released".........

You excused Bond because of the inside location.........

Take a close look at this OUTSIDE clip of Bonds.........And specifically the top hand/arm........

I see no "straight line shove" here do you?.........

Look bonds is pulling that outside pitch something very few could accomplish in this world. I know its not possible to accelerate the bat as fast as the mlb guys do by just pulling the bat head around. You really can not pull the bat to extension. Thats my opinion and I am sticking to it.

 

[Mark H]

If you think a late torque between the hands adds to the whip/wrist uncocking I have no heartburn with that. Whether you are right or wrong it's so late in the swing that I don't think it's a problem either way. If your hitters get to lag in good shape, chances are they are going to be fine.

 

[Wellphyt]

Inside/Outside......Doesn't matter IMO.......The only thing that matters is WHEN the top hand is "released".........

You excused Bond because of the inside location.........

Take a close look at this OUTSIDE clip of Bonds.........And specifically the top hand/arm........

I see no "straight line shove" here do you?.........

This is one of my favorite clips of Bonds. Check out how Bonds gets his bat head moving backwards early. First backwards and then around. Notice how there is a slight delay between the early bat head movement and shoulder rotation. This allows the hips to lead the way. It's a very efficient way of keeping the hands back. When Bonds' shoulder rotation kicks in, the bat head is already moving, so he doesn't have to start it from a dead stop. One seemless movement.

Obviously, the lower the handset the harder it is to see what the hands are doing because the bat head is by default closer to the lag position. Which is why when I work with hitters, I have them use a handset that is at least at armpit height. Once they feel how the hands work from this position, they can experiment with different handsets and find a handset that fits their personal style.

 

[Hitter]

hitter -

You might be interested in this simulation which shows how back arm inertia can be applied via the top hand to provide the positive force couple early in the swing as mentioned in the paper you linked by Rod Cross. this is an "ironnyman" model from Paul Nyman at stepro.com:

Tom thank you for the information and I had seen it quite some time ago.

The scientific explanations for what we see in videos of whose interpretation is best has been viewed by many to be is the glass half empty or half full and then a lot of opinions as not everyone sees what the other person claims is reality or fact just because it is on video. Some athletes can not even articulate well enough to explain what or how they do it well alone teach it and are successful at their craft. I do not think you have to understand how to build a nuclear weapon or understand Einstein’s theory of relativity to use it. Where is the button, when do I push it and do I understand the power of what is about to happen?

When I watched TSW on the History Channel learning how to fly using broom sticks and wires while sitting in a chair trying to keep the wires (the sight) on a plane on the movie screen trying to maneuver to shoot the plane down by keeping it, in his wire sights, shooting clay birds off the bed of a flat bed truck to learn how to shoot a bullet so it would land in front of the plane or lead it or the enemy would fly into it was eye hand coordination skills and feel. When he was called up during Korea I bet it was a major adjustment in technology and he adapted and figured it out.

This may be a thread on its own however how many girls have you worked with that do not have the basic neuro muscular skills to use a hammer correctly, can drive a nail without bending it, chopped a tree down or changed a tire (understand leverage) or can get balanced and jump without sounding like an elephant when landing? The article touches on it however when teaching females for me it was the missing link to getting them to feel it and we incorporated it in our teaching.

Watching how they hold the hammer and position their body to hit a nail is funny by itself and it is an eye opener for the dads who openly admit to never having even shown them or talked to them about how to even hold the hammer well alone how to use it!