radial deviation

[BoardMember]

I am sorry I see the top hand coming to full extension. Are you saying the lead hand pulls the top hand to that point 2nd why does the bat have so much momentum after the hand release. You can actually see the bat head accellerate past the wrist on the end of the swing.

Actually I didn't even mention the lead arm........

What I said was the top hand was "released" from the shoulders to direct energy to the contact point........

Which is very different then "shoving" or "punching" the handle forward..........Which is what you said........

they actually punch forward with the ball at contact as you would with a straight ahead shove from the body

There is NO argument regarding extension.........Extension absolutely happens......After contact of course........But it isn't because the hitter is "shoving" anything.........

It should be fairly evident that Pujols is not "shoving" his top hand straight out through contact........

I don't see a straight line "shove" here either......Do you?.......

Like I said previously........Releasing the top hand from the shoulder to direct the whip is NOT the same thing as "shoving" the top hand in a straight line into contact......

The bat head is being turned by the hands and body.......Why/when would you want to stop turning and start "shoving".........???

 

[HittingGuru]

BoardMember
I want you explain to me in detail how and why you see extension happening.

 

[HittingGuru]

The bat head is being turned by the hands and body.......Why/when would you want to stop turning and start "shoving".........???

To accelerate the bat even faster and stronger against the ball. In fact it is why in the MLB swing this is why you see the bathead accelerating quicker than the wrist going around in a rotaional force.

 

[Hitter]

BM really is in a position to understands this stuff because he is an excellent golfer and understands the internet hitting lingo and schools of thought. The thing he is missing, which most swing authorities are, is trying to really get an understanding of throwing mechanics. Dixon was the first to really focus on this as a foundation and Slaught and Epstein both now emphasize the similarity between throwing and hitting. Hodge explains throwing in a way that caries over to the early swing motion best because it recognizes that the motion requires a synching/blend of somewhat separate upper and lower body actions. This is the same approach Hardy takes in golf, separating out 1 and 2 plane patterns and describing each in terms of how an upper and lower "engine" synchs.

There is no such similarity between throwing and the PCR/gate swing pattern.

Here is a fun thread on the lower body similarity between BB pitching form that applies to the MLB swing:


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When I was introduced to Don Slaught in 2004 we in fact discussed throwing not for the purpose of actually learning how to throw but how to teach the females how to shift their weight when doing it. Crystl and I had been working together doing clinics for three years at that point. When we introduced the throwing techniques it proved to be the way to get the females to feel the weight shift forward from the ground up. We looked to see how we could get them to flex the front knee and land on the ball of the foot, by thinking nose over the toes. Because the knee does not fire in the female the way it does in the male we realized it is a learned skill we could teach them and it opened the door to help us teach and for them to learn. Crystl had been a pitcher on a boys team until she was 18 and in my opinion you can see it when she strides to hit. It looks effortless and flows. We incorporated the arm going across their body and finishing on their glove side thigh and bringing the glove hand elbow further back and you could hear the glove pop when they threw and they could feel it. The feed back was immediate as you could see the back foot release forward and their arms did not hurt anymore. We then used Don's two handed throw with the ball in the top hand to bring in teaching a linear weight shift without squishing the bug. We stand beside them with the side of our shoe against their shoe so they can not simply turn the heel.

It has been my experience that a girl who does not hit well does not throw well and one reason is they land rigid on the front leg and attempt to use all upper body strength. Most do not even step and if they do it is usually just picking up the foot and opening the knee towards the pitcher. They do not understand how to flow to the ball for hitting and it shows in their throwing technique. I have seen boys however hit poorly and throw well as they were pitchers however with the girls it goes hand in hand. Getting them to create momentum in throwing has helped us teach it for hitting in our opinion. Balance is a huge teaching point for the females also. We have them jump and land so they can hear how loudly they land and feel it. Then bend at the waist and soften the knees in that sequence and ask them to focus on landing on the ball of the foot. They land with less noise and do not come to jarring halt. The kinesiologist term it sequential core loading and the trainers term it hip hinge angle. The trainers explain it as what a gymnast looks like sticking their landing. We then push on their chest and back alternately so they can feel it from the balls of their feet through the core and look for excessive rocking of the feet. They may need to soften the knees a little more or not bend at the waist so much however they can feel it and adjust. Then we have them soften the knees first and bend at the waist and push and they will loose their balance.

I met Marc Dagenais at a recent clinic we were doing with Hillhouse, Hartwig and Kobata and it was interesting to hear all of them speak. Marc was the reason I came to the form to give it a try to see what I can learn and share ideas.

 

[tom.guerry]

I would like to heavily emphasize that it is a huge benefit to teach throwing and swinging together when the kids are young. Excellent throwing resources include Jeff Hodge BIOMECHANICBASEBALL, Ron Wolforth, pitchingcentral/athleticpitcher, Alan Jaeger long toss and Nyman/setpro throing for dummies ebook.

 

[Mark H]

The bat head is being turned by the hands and body.......Why/when would you want to stop turning and start "shoving".........???

To accelerate the bat even faster and stronger against the ball. .

I think you are talking about torquing the bat between the hands to create more rotation around an axis near the hands? I think Board is talking about the fallacy of a straight line push of the top hand which of course would create the opposite of "accelerate the bat even faster and stronger against the ball". Not advocating here. Just hoping to understand your point a little.

 

[Hitter]

We play in the HOF complex 3-4 times a year, just played in the state tournament in mid-october (3A State Champs BTW). That is just impossible in that complex. The only field situated where that could happen is the stadium field. Field 2 is at the same level as the press box, so it would have had to hit the pole about 125' above home plate. It would have also have to made it through the trees.

If your refering to the hit where Bustos baited, the chinese pitcher if I remember, into throwing her inside by crowding the plate then opening up as she went into her motion. The ball was about 60' up the light pole right behind the 300' slow pitch fence. Still very impressive, not only for the hit, but the overall mental approach to the at bat!!

Jeff H I was there myself for this hit. At the main field from home plate look beyond the 300 foot fence and the light pole is on the hillside and that pole is for the upper field not the main field. I know the pole is 396 feet from home plate. My vantage point was 7 rows behind the railing where the camera man is located and I saw it hit the pole and bounce off. The tree to its right is what I used for estimating the height from. To my knowledge there is no tree between the light pole and the fence. The base of the light pole from the field level would give it the additional height so it could be more than 75 feet.

Hope this helps explain the story.

 

[HittingGuru]

I think you are talking about torquing the bat between the hands to create more rotation around an axis near the hands? I think Board is talking about the fallacy of a straight line push of the top hand which of course would create the opposite of "accelerate the bat even faster and stronger against the ball". Not advocating here. Just hoping to understand your point a little.

The bat is torqued throughout extension. but because I teach contact deeper in the zone than most. along with an inside contact point to stay with the ball longer and provide a cleaner crisper release off of the bat it creates greater energy transfer from the bat to the ball.

 

[HittingGuru]

Extra comment ideally what you want from the ball when it comes off of the bat is to have backspin not any side to side spin. Thats why you make contact just to the inside corner of the ball the ball will release from the bat in a straight line. creates a lot of gap to gap hitting also.

 

[Mark H]

The bat is torqued throughout extension. but because I teach contact deeper in the zone than most. along with an inside contact point to stay with the ball longer and provide a cleaner crisper release off of the bat it creates greater energy transfer from the bat to the ball.

I'm not asking about what you teach. I'm trying to facilitate an understanding between you and Board since it sounded like the two of you were discussing apples and oranges. Torquing through extension would not be a straight line top hand push. But let me step back now and the two of you continue your conversation.