radial deviation

[tom.guerry]

More for SB

SB: I suggest you get against a net (back up towards a net and try this) stance, load, toe touch, separated and swing. Did you hit the net with the bat as you started connection or if preferred started to lower the back elbow to slot? If you torque or make a deliberate effort to tip the barrel of the bat forward then rearward you probably hit the net from excessive bat drag. Using the net verses a wall as it will save the wall and possibly a bat if you are at a chain link fence. When working with hitters who use this excessive torquing of the bat the net will catch them every, so why would any one teach this extra move? You can not tell me pop ups will not result from this movement when the back elbow gets ahead of the hands.

Question/Comment: Is the net/wall behind the hitters back or on the catcher side ?

Very much agree with this: "You can not tell me pop ups will not result from this movement when the back elbow gets ahead of the hands."

This is the most basic form of disconnection and drag. You need to apply the torque so that the back elbow stays back and is not allowed to slide forward which would be excessive upper arm flexion/aDduction (not keeping back elbow up and back as the upper arm externally rotates and the back forearm rolls/supinates). This fits with Slaught's "connection" checkpoint where the elbow does not get past being lined up with the side.

As the swing proceeds, this torquing/forearm rolling action must also not force either "wrist bind" (which makes swing plane wobble) or premature unhinging/ADduction/ulnar deviation of the lead wrist. In addition to arm/forearm motion sequence, grip is important here.



SB, I would also like to hear yor answers to your own question here:

SB: I listened to the You Tube presentations...can you see what was lacking in the description of the swing especially after they move away from the MLB elite swing? How would you correct it as to staying connected as some describe it?

 

[Wellphyt]

Bustos uses her hands the same as Pujols, but from a lower handset position. IMO, Bustos is as good as it gets in fastpitch. I have no idea whether or not she actually knows what she does or can accurately teach what's she does, but what she does is very close to the MLB swing.

The fact that she can do it, means other females can do it. What Pujols does with his hands in frames 9, 10 & 11 is not gender specific and the same movement can be performed by females.

Now if someone were to say that females can't comfortably duplicate Pujols' batting stance because of the differences in the hips and spine between males and females, then I might agree. My wife is in the medical field and routinely points this stuff out to me.

 

[BoardMember]

WUP vs. MFT.........

In this article......which I really enjoyed.......

WUP vs. MFT........

The article/research talks about the differences between the oldest swing theories which include both a ONCE PIECE move.....ALL IN......or "launch and spend" as some refer to it........AND......segmentation whip which is a "build" product brought about by proximal to distal segmentation and the kinetic chain, allowing time for things to "line up" as the kinetic energy "builds" to a peak at/near contact.......

Both of the above refered to as the "Whip 'Um Theory".....or "WUP".......

Comparing to the newest and greatest swing theorem IMO, that involves a "dual fire" sequence that implies that the human body IS capable of firing TWICE during the sequence of the swing.......Firing ONCE at initiation........and AGAIN just before/at contact........

Refered to as "Multiple Firing Theory".......or "MFT"......

This is a subject that hits home.......And one that I can really wrap my head around........

Summarizing the two sides of "WUP".........or "Whip 'Um Theory"......

"WUP"-1: (EH/Nyman/Yeager) Movements in the swing are allowed to "organize" in a way the maximizes the kinematic sequence of proximal to distal......meaning the big muscles fire first........and the organization of distal parts is such that kinetic energy is passed on and BUILT on by addition, until released........Of course scientifically......this a is biomechanical fact of how the body works......

"WUP"-2 (Hitting Illustrated Only): Movements in the swing are forced into organization (or left out of sequence) by ONE firing muscular contraction at launch........ALL IN AT LAUNCH (Launch and Spend)......AND COASTING TO CONTACT.......The theory here is that the "build" of WUP-1 is not sufficient/efficient enough to produce power and bat speeds necessary for high level competition......and......somehow the "build" of WUP-1 detracts from adjustability.......

Summarizing "MFT".......(Tiger Woods/World Long Drive Champ): Movements combine BOTH the efficiency of "WUP-1" sementation that allows things to align, along with a SECOND firing of "MFT" just before/at impact to MAXIMIZE impact collision and "really pound it when you have to", according to the theorem.........Creating a "boom BOOM" sequence according to the article.....

The downside of WUP-2 (Hitting Illustrated Only): According to the article/research, the "single whip" theory has inherant problems which are created by the "single firing" methodology.......As explained in the quotes from the article below:

Secret Root Cause of Casting and Flipping

If your hips and shoulders slow down too early in the downswing (because no one told it to fire again), then naturally conservation of angular momentum takes over and all speed and energy goes to the hands. Voila! We are casting! At the very least, without one's shoulders firing at high speeds at impact, we get a hand flip. It just can't be helped. We flip because we don't fire our hips and shoulders again. And we don't fire our hips and shoulders again because we're not supposed to.

So you see it's a vicious cycle that you can't get out of... until you change your paradigm. Yes, you need to know how to use your hands but if you don't use your body properly, nothing outside of hitting hundreds of thousands of balls with major compensations will make you better

Over the Top Move

Inadvertently, the WUT swing can cause people to get anxious and hit from the top. Logically, if your hips are going to fire just once, you better do it fast, hard, and right from the start of the downswing. Oh, Did I just describe how people come over the top?...........

The Paradoxial Paridigm..........

Only one of the original WUP's works with the Mutiple Firing Theory "MFT".....That would of course be WUP-1.....Segmentation Whip.......

And in fact.......WUP-2 (launch and spend, coast to contact).....according to the article "RUINS" the chance of the Second Firing of the MFT theorem.........

Contrast that to the MFT swing that allows time for "positioning" of the body to really fire hard at impact. This positioning or getting into position can and should be done at a slower tempo than the 2nd half of the downswing. Since we're moving the entire body weight during transition, this cannot happen too fast or an incorrect spinning move will occur thereby ruining chances for a good 2nd firing.

Conclusion:

WUP-1 Segmentation Whip COMBINED with the MFT Second Firing methodology allows the body to both properly align and: "really pound it when you have to", according to the research..........

Ironically........I've been advocating a form of MFT for years......claiming that there is in fact a firing just before contact.........only to have Dr. Guerry and Hitting Illustrated laud the notion.......claming the there CANNOT be a "second firing" since the launch and spend single/whip is in charge of the entire swing.........

.........Tell it to Tiger and the Worlds Long Drive Champion........

Of course if you didn't mean to link the article for SSarge's reference......You probably shouldn't have........

Thanks again for the article Dr. Tom.......

 

[HittingGuru]

BoardMember

I don't see the connection to Gollf so much since the Elite golfer lead arm is straight at contact.Being a purely rotational force around the pivot point of the wrist. The elite baseball/softball hitters lead arm is bent at contact and they actually punch forward with the ball at contact as you would with a straight ahead shove from the body. Which becomes a combination of both linear and rotational forces.

 

[tom.guerry]

when comparing motions like golf and hitting swings and throwing it is important to set the context right in terms of what patterns are being discussed and what parts of the motion are similar vs different.

For example, when someone like Candrea says "if you can throw, you can hit" what this means is that the early/loading part of the MLB pattern swing is like the early/preparation part of overhand or side arm throw, up to the rubberbandwinding part immediately before the drops and tilt/GO/launch trifecta.

An important part of this is that learning to swing like the throw will produce the MLB pattern, NOT the GATE pattern which is to be avoided.

The PCR/Gate swing is NOT like overhand throw.

The MLB pattern and overhand throw resemble the 2 plane golf pattern much more than the 1 plane. 1 plane golf is like PCR/gate swing, except in golf, you can get a full whipping swing with 1 plane whereas in hitting, the 1 plane/PCR swing has to be shortened and quickened to the point that whip and adjustability is lost in the search for the 5 or less frame swing (frame counting is not useful in assessing MLB patern, pureness of pattern/sequence is the only adequate method and either you can feel it and see it or you can't). The PCR approach is learning a standard swing and horetning it rather than learning and early quick swing that can be adjusted late for solid contact, an entirely different pattern and timing approach.

And, MLB pattern is also quite different from even 2 plane golf. In thr MLB pattern, there is much more of a compund pendulum effect from the lead arm not being straight. There is a requirement for early batspeed so contact is relatively much earlier in the arm action sequence (before and INternal rotation of back arm, for example). There is much later back and forth weight shift with the swing putting the foot down. The MLB pattern is hips and hands as opposed to 2 plane golf which is arms and hands. In the case of the MLB pattern, the earlier swing which can be adjusted late uses forearm swivel and tilting of the shoulders, both of which are avoided in golf because they reduce consistency/repeatability.

The golf action is optimized for repetitive contact with still ball on tee.

The MLB pattern is instead optimized to reduce timing error by short,quick,early swing and by adjustable/lengthy contact zone/"plane matching". Williams figured this out first and best.

 

[tom.guerry]

Seeing the difference can be tough and often involves using swinging and video yourself to be able to relate the feel of what is "under the hood" to the surface/video appearance ("form v function" to use the PCR guideline category). But you CAN learn to see the difference on the surface.

This is a thread that touches on this with comparison video of students:


http://www.baseballdebate.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=public&action=display&thread=373

 

[ssarge]

I don't see the connection to Gollf so much since the Elite golfer lead arm is straight at contact.Being a purely rotational force around the pivot point of the wrist. The elite baseball/softball hitters lead arm is bent at contact and they actually punch forward with the ball at contact as you would with a straight ahead shove from the body. Which becomes a combination of both linear and rotational forces.

NO one would bring up the golf articles other than to respond to Tom. Who posts golf articles frequently to support his baseball swing theories. INEVITABLY, portions of those articles hurt his position as much as other portions help it, and they point out glaring inconsistencies. As Boardmember noted in his post above. And BM is worth listening to when he talks about golf, because he is pushing retirement and still plays to scratch. He also has put over 50 softball hitters into college, so he is worth listenting to there, too.

Einstein never found his Theory of Everything. Nobody is going to find it for the baseball / softball swing, either, and even less so if you expand that to include golf as well. Watching someone try, and then attempting to use that observed evolving mass of theorem, speculation, and intellectual stimulation as a teaching foundation is beyond futile.

One of the few ABSOLUTES in that is that the body works as the body works. Abandon that as a foundation for understanding and you've lost all hope. Doesn't preclude some from trying, however.

Scott

 

[tom.guerry]

BM really is in a position to understands this stuff because he is an excellent golfer and understands the internet hitting lingo and schools of thought. The thing he is missing, which most swing authorities are, is trying to really get an understanding of throwing mechanics. Dixon was the first to really focus on this as a foundation and Slaught and Epstein both now emphasize the similarity between throwing and hitting. Hodge explains throwing in a way that caries over to the early swing motion best because it recognizes that the motion requires a synching/blend of somewhat separate upper and lower body actions. This is the same approach Hardy takes in golf, separating out 1 and 2 plane patterns and describing each in terms of how an upper and lower "engine" synchs.

There is no such similarity between throwing and the PCR/gate swing pattern.

Here is a fun thread on the lower body similarity between BB pitching form that applies to the MLB swing:


http://www.baseballdebate.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pitching&action=display&thread=378

 

[BoardMember]

BoardMember

I don't see the connection to Golf so much since the Elite golfer lead arm is straight at contact.

I didn't bring it up...Dr. Guerry did........

Although like SSarge says......"the body moves as it moves"........

It's about finding the pattern the best represents the goal.....

Of course the golf swing has little to do with the BB/SB swing......

But the bio-mechanics of how the body uses it's resources follows the same pattern in most rotational functions........

Being a purely rotational force around the pivot point of the wrist. The elite baseball/softball hitters lead arm is bent at contact and they actually punch forward with the ball at contact as you would with a straight ahead shove from the body. Which becomes a combination of both linear and rotational forces.

Advocating a straight line push with the top hand is not something I'd agree with......IMO this would be akin to trying to crack a whip and then pushing the whip handle forward toward the cracking whip end......Why would you "push" the whip handle forward........In essence "chasing" the redial deviation........Like this:

IMO the hitter "releases" rotational energy into contact........IOW......Releases the top hand to direct the energy generated/stored into contact......Much different then "shoving" the top hand forward.......

More like this:

Even on this inside pitch........Pujols doesn't "shove" his top hand forward...Although he certainly could if he wanted to.........He releases the energy toward contact..........Very different IMO......

Best Regards.......

 

[HittingGuru]

I am sorry I see the top hand coming to full extension. Are you saying the lead hand pulls the top hand to that point 2nd why does the bat have so much momentum after the hand release. You can actually see the bat head accellerate past the wrist on the end of the swing.