- Feb 24, 2010
- 154
- 0
I don't have a problem with the kids stealing the signs; I do have a problem when the adult coaches do it.
Stealing signs?
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Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Is there a differencebetween knowing what pitch is coming if it comes from 1) stealing the coach or catcher to pitcher sign OR 2) from a pitcher "tell"???
FWIW, there's no magic age where catchers automatically can call a good game. If they understand the hows, whys, and situations, they should be allowed to progressively take more responsibility to call the game. The reality is that coaches can't see **** from the bench. The catcher best knows the ump's strike zone, the pitcher's stuff that day, and can see hitters set up and subtle adjustments - the coach on the bench clearly sees, at best, 1/3 of that (i.e., the hitters set) but is blind to the ump's zone and pitchers pitches. IMO, the college coaches call games for several reasons 1) their livelihood depends on their success and they trust themselves more than their catchers 2) the catchers have not previously been trained how to call pitches and 3) the coach may have extensive scouting reports at their disposal. That said, the college coach is no different than anyone else - they still can't see **** from the dugout. Condense the scouting report on a QB type wrist band, teach the catcher how to do the job, give the catcher responsibility and accountability and the results may be far more productive. Of course, not all catchers (or QBs) call a good game, but you don't know unless you try.
FWIW, there's no magic age where catchers automatically can call a good game. If they understand the hows, whys, and situations, they should be allowed to progressively take more responsibility to call the game. The reality is that coaches can't see **** from the bench. The catcher best knows the ump's strike zone, the pitcher's stuff that day, and can see hitters set up and subtle adjustments - the coach on the bench clearly sees, at best, 1/3 of that (i.e., the hitters set) but is blind to the ump's zone and pitchers pitches. IMO, the college coaches call games for several reasons 1) their livelihood depends on their success and they trust themselves more than their catchers 2) the catchers have not previously been trained how to call pitches and 3) the coach may have extensive scouting reports at their disposal. That said, the college coach is no different than anyone else - they still can't see **** from the dugout. Condense the scouting report on a QB type wrist band, teach the catcher how to do the job, give the catcher responsibility and accountability and the results may be far more productive. Of course, not all catchers (or QBs) call a good game, but you don't know unless you try.
I came up in the game that condoned a fb to rib cage if you got caught sneaking a peak at catcher set up - stealing a sign for sure. We don't do that in fp for a number of reasons i suppose (every 60' counts, girls play nice, we have evolved, ?). Could you ever imagine a runner on 2b communicating pitch location to hitter in a bb game and someone not getting "beaned?". The truth is i'm not willing to risk injury to a kid because i'm too lazy to change my signs up.
I do give my girls tips on "tells" and encourage them to look for and share "tells" themselves. I will adjust my defense when i see something that my girls either missed or don't react to in accordance with my liking. However, i don't actively hunt for signs and certainly dont recruit or encourage my parents to. We've all had that dad who comes in after every inning with a stolen sign or sure tell.
Finally, my kids don't call offense, coach bases, make out line ups, or call pitches. I bet they could do most better than most - i encourage them to learn and understand the total philosophy behind what we do. I encourage an ongoing dialogue between p, c and me. Ive had them shake off pitches and lobby for a different approach to a hitter. However, at the end of the day - i'm the coach.
I do give my girls tips on "tells" and encourage them to look for and share "tells" themselves. I will adjust my defense when i see something that my girls either missed or don't react to in accordance with my liking. However, i don't actively hunt for signs and certainly dont recruit or encourage my parents to. We've all had that dad who comes in after every inning with a stolen sign or sure tell.
Finally, my kids don't call offense, coach bases, make out line ups, or call pitches. I bet they could do most better than most - i encourage them to learn and understand the total philosophy behind what we do. I encourage an ongoing dialogue between p, c and me. Ive had them shake off pitches and lobby for a different approach to a hitter. However, at the end of the day - i'm the coach.
I'm not sure why the obsession with having the catchers call pitches?
I know my daughter if she catches in HS won't be calling pitches. If she wants to catch and is good enough for college - far more likely than not, she won't be calling pitches.
To say a catcher isn't being developed if they don't call pitches is well.....high comedy.
I’ll take a catcher that has a good rapport with an umpire and can properly frame pitches any day and twice during Sunday’s championship game.
Teach her to give the coach proper feedback on the batters and to work with the coach on what he/she is looking for. That is what is more likely going to happen at the higher levels anyway.
I know my daughter if she catches in HS won't be calling pitches. If she wants to catch and is good enough for college - far more likely than not, she won't be calling pitches.
To say a catcher isn't being developed if they don't call pitches is well.....high comedy.
I’ll take a catcher that has a good rapport with an umpire and can properly frame pitches any day and twice during Sunday’s championship game.
Teach her to give the coach proper feedback on the batters and to work with the coach on what he/she is looking for. That is what is more likely going to happen at the higher levels anyway.
My son was 14, and shorter then the rest of the boys in the 16u age group. He was a very good hitter, but he crowded (short arms) the plate. A catcher made a comment to him about being to close, and the very next pitch it came up and in. When I heard I was at work (about to leave to see as much of his games as I could), my wife was at a softball tournament with my DD when he got hit. So no one from our family was there. At first I didn't worry because he gets plunked all the time. he knows how to turn away and has never been injured, he lead the HS team in HBP. Well for what ever reason, he turned into this pitch. I think he just had a minor brain fart and lost focus for a split second and the ball was on top of him. I got the next call telling me that he was dizzy and his neck was hurting so the coach called 911. When I showed up at the ER I could hardly recognize him, his face was so swollen. His lip looked 3 times its normal size... Long story, short (well just not so long). 4 teeth pushed in, 4 teeth chipped, 2 broken bones in his face. Couldn't run or do anything for 4 weeks, pain meds for I don't remember how long. he played in 2 more baseball games after that, told me it wasn't fun anymore and he didn't want to risk being hurt for something that he didn't find fun. Started to play soccer year round instead of half and half.
Anyone who thinks that throwing one inside to punish a batter for anything, is an idiot.
Anyone who thinks that throwing one inside to punish a batter for anything, is an idiot.
- Jul 26, 2010
- 3,554
- 0
Olympic catchers call the pitches. Former D1 catchers that are now enjoying their careers in "early childhood education" didn't call their pitches.
I don't understand why a coach would not set high goals for their players. I guess all the years of being an entitled society expecting gifts on a platter has taken it's toll on dreams and lowered expectations all around.
As a point of reference though, College teams play eachother over and over and over. There are reams of detailed data on exactly what each batter did against every pitch in every scenario. In addition to this data, there is a wealth of scouting information and video. College coaches calling pitches are doing so based on statistics, and with all of the information available, it might be silly for them not to take advantage of this. HOWEVER, it would also be very silly of them to not allow their pitcher and catcher to choose a different pitch then what is called based on "intelligence on the ground". It would be impossible for the pitcher and catcher to make such a decision, however, if they never had the chance to develop the tools to do so.
I don't know about you, but the reason we play travel ball out here is so that our team gets exposed to as many different situations as possible, different teams, different players, different scenarios. We don't have that kind of scouting information in travel ball. At the high school level, I'm sure that information is available, but from the stories I hear about most HS coaches, would you really want these butternuts calling a game?
Softball is a quick reaction sport. The best teams are the teams that adapt the quickest. Develop the tools to make quick and gutsy decisions for when things don't turn out the way the book tells you they will.
-W
I don't understand why a coach would not set high goals for their players. I guess all the years of being an entitled society expecting gifts on a platter has taken it's toll on dreams and lowered expectations all around.
As a point of reference though, College teams play eachother over and over and over. There are reams of detailed data on exactly what each batter did against every pitch in every scenario. In addition to this data, there is a wealth of scouting information and video. College coaches calling pitches are doing so based on statistics, and with all of the information available, it might be silly for them not to take advantage of this. HOWEVER, it would also be very silly of them to not allow their pitcher and catcher to choose a different pitch then what is called based on "intelligence on the ground". It would be impossible for the pitcher and catcher to make such a decision, however, if they never had the chance to develop the tools to do so.
I don't know about you, but the reason we play travel ball out here is so that our team gets exposed to as many different situations as possible, different teams, different players, different scenarios. We don't have that kind of scouting information in travel ball. At the high school level, I'm sure that information is available, but from the stories I hear about most HS coaches, would you really want these butternuts calling a game?
Softball is a quick reaction sport. The best teams are the teams that adapt the quickest. Develop the tools to make quick and gutsy decisions for when things don't turn out the way the book tells you they will.
-W
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Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
BMonk - I'd say you have it backwards! The real question should be "What's the obsession with coaches calling pitches?" If only coaches call pitches, then how did that coach themself develop the experience and expertise to call pitches??? Why do MLB catchers call their own games and not the manager or coach??? While its not life and death, that's the highest level of play with the most at stake. Why, then, don't the coaches/managers call the game? Think about it!
Greenmonsters
Wannabe Duck Boat Owner
Here's the deal with stats and "the book" at the college and higher levels. At these levels, BOTH TEAMS HAVE THEM! If the coach/catcher/Patty Pitcher all know that Suzy Slapper struck out twice on a curve ball and ripped a drop ball last game v. Patty , you can bet that the other coach and Suzy know the same thing. Unless Suzy can't hit a curve ball (which might put her on the bench), then who has the advantage the next time they face each other? If you go according to the book, it shouldn't really be surprising if Suzy crushes a curve in her next at bat v. Patty.
It's good to have the information, but the outcome most likely will be determined by who makes the best adjustment or whether one of them makes a mistake. Maybe you don't throw Suzy a curve her first 2 at bats, and try to save it for a key time later in the game. Maybe you throw her drops in the dirt to entice a swing. IMO, the best approach is to review the scouting report and tendencies, see what the pitcher has that day, figure out the ump's zone, see what, if any, adjustments Sally Slapper is making, and then call the pitch/pitch sequence. The only one of these the coach can see clearly from the bench is the scouting report!
My catcher calls the game but I like to sit on the bucket and give signs too. They don't mean anything but if I need to get a message to the catcher then I am out there and don't need to yell. Young catchers biggest weakness is going away from a pitch that is not hitting the mark and sometimes this makes the pitcher on dimensional and easier to hit.
I am a huge fan of the catcher calling pitches and our catcher has been calling them since 10u travel ball. The key is to teach them why a certain pitch might work and always focus on keeping the hitter off balance.
I am a huge fan of the catcher calling pitches and our catcher has been calling them since 10u travel ball. The key is to teach them why a certain pitch might work and always focus on keeping the hitter off balance.
