Howard Drill

[Chris O'Leary]

The answer for us was for my daughter to learn how to send the barrel rearward into heel plant...What we discovered is that when the hands start the barrel rearward into heel plant the hips naturally get out in front of the hands because the hands are unable to move forward while they are busy turning the barrel.

Your understanding of the sequencing of this is off.

Maybe this works as a cue, but what you see in good swings is that there is ZERO rearward movement of the barrel prior to heel plant. At most, it drops down into the slot during heel plant.

From that point on, barrel movement is driven by the rotation of the shoulders.

What you are describing with early barrel movement is leaking or sweeping the bat head and its a low-level movement that you have to train OUT of hitters, not train IN to them.

 

[Wellphyt]

Your understanding of the sequencing of this is off.

Maybe this works as a cue, but what you see in good swings is that there is ZERO rearward movement of the barrel prior to heel plant. At most, it drops down into the slot during heel plant.

From that point on, barrel movement is driven by the rotation of the shoulders.

What you are describing with early barrel movement is leaking or sweeping the bat head and its a low-level movement that you have to train OUT of hitters, not train IN to them.

Chris, trying to discuss hitting with you is like talking to someone who speaks a different language.

Is Jen Yee's barrel moving or not into heel plant?
Is Ted Williams' barrel moving or not into heel plant?
Is Barry Bonds' barrel moving or not into heel plant?

What does "drop down into the slot" mean Chris? How does it drop down Chris? What direction is the barrel pointing as it drops down Chris? Are you suggesting that good hitters simple drop their hands to "drop down into the slot"? I have never meant one single coach who believes that dropping the hands is good. Especially in FP where the girls have to deal with the rise ball.

IMO the barrel is turned, it is not dropped. LOL

 

[tom.guerry]

Well -

A few feel/cue related tweaks you might look into:

1 - if you use the swingbuilder sequence described at BBD - coil,stretch,separate - the rear leg needs to TURN ahead of the rear hip during "stretch", this is the ACTIVITY that gives the "ground up" feel. The twisting back foot "move" action (not the push/eversion/extension at the ankle) is a passive support of this higher up action

2- the "grab" of the rear hip is a grabbing of the ball of the rear femur, not a grab of the shoulders

3- the rear arm action sequence is similar to throw in terms of internal rotation-aBduction-External rotation, BUT, the External rotation can not be an "up and over" that creates a longer "elbow pivot swing". At this point, it is already different from the overall overhand throw (where you do "throw the elbow" as part of forming a good arm loop to whip) and needs to support a tight "hand pivot" at GO (the swingbuilder "separation" is additonal stretch - then -fire with GO). Then the action entirely diverges from throw by becoming distal forearm/hand handle torque dominant, supported by elbow triangle rotation and shoulder tilt.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Is Barry Bonds' barrel moving or not into heel plant?

Yes, but it's moving vertically, not horizontally, which is the running start.

The running start is valid.

Sending the barrel rearward into heel plant is demonstrably wrong and is a very low level movement pattern. That is why you don't see it in good swings.

What you see in good swings is the movement of the barrel due to the rotation of the shoulders (which are pulled around by the hips).

What does "drop down into the slot" mean Chris? How does it drop down Chris? What direction is the barrel pointing as it drops down Chris?

The barrel of the bat starts up out of the swing plane and then drops down into the swing plane just before the start of the swing. Like this...

Are you suggesting that good hitters simple drop their hands to "drop down into the slot"? I have never meant one single coach who believes that dropping the hands is good. Especially in FP where the girls have to deal with the rise ball.

This doesn't have anything to do with dropping the hands.

In the really good hitters, as they go into foot plant their hands and front elbow are going up which causes the barrel of the bat to drop down into the strike zone.

That keeps the hands high, which allows you to hit the high pitch.

Here's Pujols hitting the baseball equivalent of a riseball.

IMO the barrel is turned, it is not dropped. LOL

In what direction is the barrel turned? By what?

 

[cshilt]

The barrel of the bat starts up out of the swing plane and then drops down into the swing plane just before the start of the swing.

Recently we've addressed this in my DD's swing and was able increase the power in her swing. Good timing since she put one over the fence in her first practice on her new team.

In the really good hitters, as they go into foot plant their hands and front elbow are going up which causes the barrel of the bat to drop down into the strike zone.

When we do the drill work (like the matrix drill) in slow motion she begins to feel the action of the back elbow lowering as the lead elbow is making a good first move forward about 2 to 4 inches as the lead shoulder is opening. Howard uses a saying "where the elbow was the hand will be" showing how the lead elbow looks as if it is going up a ramp and not going straight ahead.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Recently we've addressed this in my DD's swing and was able increase the power in her swing. Good timing since she put one over the fence in her first practice on her new team.

This can cut a frame off of the start of the swing.

I'm going to suggest this to a couple of ML clients, one of whom wants to convert some of his doubles into HRs.

When we do the drill work (like the matrix drill) in slow motion she begins to feel the action of the back elbow lowering as the lead elbow is making a good first move forward about 2 to 4 inches as the lead shoulder is opening. Howard uses a saying "where the elbow was the hand will be" showing how the lead elbow looks as if it is going up a ramp and not going straight ahead.

That's an interesting way of thinking about it.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

If you put your curser on her back elbow at the start of the swing, it goes around the corner.

I have asked her to do dryswings in her bedroom to load straight back. I have seen this and talked with her on the subject.
She has not done enough reps to change her load straight back verses going around the corner.


Another thing that does is take your hands out over the plate abit before you go straight and you end up hitting less with the sweet part of the bat.

Or as Howard says your bat in not in the big zone as long

It also screws abit with keeping a tight hand path.

It is up to her to fix it. I can tell her, she has to practice it.



Straightleg

SL, loading the hands straight back is an approach that can lead to timing and sequence issues. The hands in good hitters are often seen to move down & in, and then up. The 'down' movement of their hands occurs during their coil … or if you prefer, during their gather, or the loading of their rear hip/leg. The 'up' motion of their hands occurs during the uncoil … or if you prefer, during the positive move. You can use the hands to promote the 'stretch' and put the body in a more favorable position to automatically & effortlessly generate downstream hip/shoulder spatial separation.

Try it … I believe you’ll find that this separation issue is an easy nut to crack if you teach a sequence that assists with getting the timing correct.

As for the big zone comment …. I wonder if you are differentiating between having the barrel in plane with the ball, with contact made “deep in the zone” Vs. “out front”. What folks like Wellphyt are attempting to do with their advice, is create a “big zone” that has the barrel making contact “deep in the zone”. There is a lot to be said for making contact deep in the zone.

First things first … tackle the separation issue. Stop with the brut force attempts to power the hips ahead of the shoulders …. And instead move to a sequence where that happens naturally. I suggest one approach above … there are others. My recommendation is to consider tackling this from a sequence point of view.

p.s.
Thought I'd include a video. See if you can observe the hands moving 'down' during the coil/lower-body-load and 'up' during the positive move.

 

[cshilt]

p.s.
Thought I'd include a video. See if you can observe the hands moving 'down' during the coil/lower-body-load and 'up' during the positive move.

These are really good examples of styles vs. absolutes (to borrow the terms from some pitching friends). What Cabrera does with his hands prior to heal plant is a style choice, much like the high stride. What is important is where his hands are and the barrel of the bat is at toe touch. If you were to compare clips of high level swings from toe touch to contact, I think you'd find a lot of common ground.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

CSHilt, I agree, the hand pump action used by Cabrera is not an absolute … although it is quite common amongst a large number of high level hitters …. Bonds, Williams, and many, many others.

I point this out as one approach to getting the sequence correct WITH TIMING … and for many, this style assists in creating the “walking away from the hands” type separation that hitting instructors like RudyJ consider to be an absolute.

IMO, what you want to avoid is an “all back, all forward” type uni-load … which can fool folks into thinking that they are satisfying the objective, when in fact the “timing” is often, but not always, incorrect.

This particular ‘style’ can assist with timing, while helping to build in ‘stretch’. I’d welcome hearing other styles that help with a student having issues getting to this position with timing.

 

[cshilt]

IMO, what you want to avoid is an “all back, all forward” type uni-load … which can fool folks into thinking that they are satisfying the objective, when in fact the “timing” is often, but not always, incorrect.

I agree. To me getting the bat slotted correctly is a crucial part of separation, which is what Cabera is doing pretty well. I think if Casey was slotting the bat a little better you'd have less to say about her swing other than "looks great"!