My Two Cents

[Greenmonsters]

Some reflections after re-reading through this thread.

What I currently think I know:
The high-level MLB pattern/ swing is the FP objective
Not all MLB swings are optimally efficient/high level (i.e., it’s hard to stay in the majors)
MLB swings are more efficient (i.e., powerfull and adjustable) than college BB and SB swings
FP SB acceptance and teaching of the high-level swing lags behind BB by at least a few years
There are physical differences between males and females
Video WITH verbal analysis is far more effective than written analysis of video/photos alone, which is far more effective than written analysis alone

What I still don’t know:
Is it just a lack of video availability that limits teaching of the desired high-level swing using elite females (Bustos, Corchran, Yee etc)? or are these swings too inefficient to be effective?
How much inefficiency can be attributed to physical male/female differences?
My video analysis skills have a lot of room for improvement

In Summation - I actually think that most here agree on much more than we disagree relative to hitting – its just that the disagreement garners more attention, which isn’t a bad thing. I also think that video w/ audio is the most effective way to communicate in this type of setting because it eliminates a lot of potential confusion and misunderstanding related to terminology and semantics. I think some of the things Hitter was trying to explain became infinitely clearer when the video clips were added. Tewks was also very effective at communicating his points of interest when he did this. I know its golf, but when I checked out the links to Jim Hardy’s narrated golf swing clips that Tom G posted above, I immediately thought how effective that could be for SB here.

 

[Daddy O]

I also think that video w/ audio is the most effective way to communicate in this type of setting because it eliminates a lot of potential confusion and misunderstanding related to terminology and semantics. I think some of the things Hitter was trying to explain became infinitely clearer when the video clips were added. Tewks was also very effective at communicating his points of interest when he did this. I know its golf, but when I checked out the links to Jim Hardy’s narrated golf swing clips that Tom G posted above, I immediately thought how effective that could be for SB here.

That's the problem. Everyone wants to pick apart someones swing or style of teaching but very few have the nads to post video showing how they do it or what they would do specifically to fix someone's swing. Like LClifton stated, "Describing what is wrong with a swing is the easy part", now show what you would do to fix it. So far only a few have.

 

[Wellphyt]

That's the problem. Everyone wants to pick apart someones swing or style of teaching but very few have the nads to post video showing how they do it or what they would do specifically to fix someone's swing. Like LClifton stated, "Describing what is wrong with a swing is the easy part", now show what you would do to fix it. So far only a few have.

IMO it has less to do with nads and more to do with the fact that some of us aren't set up with the hardware and software to post quality video. Not to mention that some of us are technology challenged when it comes to capturing, converting, editing and posting video clips on a message board.

I also think that too many people are just looking for a magic drill or fix that will turn their kids into productive hitters over night. I know that was my mentality early on in the learning process. "Just show me a drill to fix my daughter's" ____________ (insert problem). What I have since learned is that when you learn the physics and kinesiology behind the swing, you are better equipped to develop your own solutions to various swing issues.

It's the old saying "Feed a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he feeds himself for a lifetime." When posters like Tom G post golf info on a softball message board, what they are attempting to do is teach people how to fish. So while some on here are looking for the latest drill, others on here find a lot of value in posts that get into the finer points of the swing.

Truth be told, most people don't do the drills correctly even after you show them. I had to watch Epstein's dvds about 20 times before I picked up on most of what he was explaining. Everytime I watched his dvds I would pick up something new that I had missed. My daughter still ended up with a reverse weight shift and a disconnected swing.

 

[Coach JV]

I always read these hitting threads with great interest as opinions are so diverse
time after time. My experience with the younger girls is normally like this.
We shoot video of the girls hitting from a machine at practice and immediately dissect
with laptop. We then try too correct the obvious flaws in the swing. The problem that arises in the
11-14 girls is when one mechanic is changed, another arises. Correcting hitting is an ongoing process,
thus the lengthy threads as we all continue to learn.......

 

[lawdawg]

It's the old saying "Feed a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he feeds himself for a lifetime."

Wellphyt -you got it, IMO. I try to absorb all that I can and apply it where it fits. There are some absolutes to hitting, (e.g., see - ball - hit - ball) or as Yogi says "99% of the time you won't hit if you don't swing." However, beyond that - there are so many variables involved - I'm always leary of someone who insists there is only one way. Anyone who watches ULL v. Arizona must come away with some mental contradictions. IMO, hitting is alot like a good "gumbo," ingredients may vary but its ok as long as it taste good in the end.

That said - I'm usually a lurker on these threads - not a poster, for that very reason - I take your ideology, digest it use it and then get credit for it if it works. If it doesn't, I throw it out and blame you.

 

[Wellphyt]

What I still don’t know:
Is it just a lack of video availability that limits teaching of the desired high-level swing using elite females (Bustos, Corchran, Yee etc)? or are these swings too inefficient to be effective?
How much inefficiency can be attributed to physical male/female differences?
My video analysis skills have a lot of room for improvement

In Summation - I actually think that most here agree on much more than we disagree relative to hitting – its just that the disagreement garners more attention, which isn’t a bad thing. I also think that video w/ audio is the most effective way to communicate in this type of setting because it eliminates a lot of potential confusion and misunderstanding related to terminology and semantics. I think some of the things Hitter was trying to explain became infinitely clearer when the video clips were added. Tewks was also very effective at communicating his points of interest when he did this. I know its golf, but when I checked out the links to Jim Hardy’s narrated golf swing clips that Tom G posted above, I immediately thought how effective that could be for SB here.

IMO female FP hitters are increasingly trying to develop HLBB swing mechanics. In order to do this they need a blueprint to follow. So they seek out MLB players who perform the HLBB swing better than any other athletes on the planet. If the goal is the HLBB, then it only makes sense to use athletes who are the best at doing it. Remember, the HLBB swing is a relatively new phenomenom in FP. Ask yourself, how many FP coaches were teaching the HLBB swing 10 years ago? 15 years ago? Enquist wasn't. Candrea wasn't.

In the year 2000 Epstein does his first "Do We Teach What We Really See?" seminar and coins the phrase "Rotational Hitting" and talks about torque, tilt, separation, etc. The next thing you know, college FP coaches start ordering his dvds. Eventually Candrea gets on board via Don Slaught and RVP PRO and all of a sudden everyone in FP is suddenly teaching the HLBB swing. However, FP parents that were ahead of their time and on board with the HLBB before the Candrea's of the world deemed it "acceptible", understand that you don't just flick a switch and roll out of bed one morning and start teaching the HLBB swing. IMO it's more of a lengthy journey with a few wrong turns thrown in for humility sake.

Which is why I continue to believe that FP hitting is still evolving. IMO, as more good information becomes available the female swings will become more efficient. I still don't buy into the male vs female argument. IMO that argument comes from not having a more complete understanding of the HLBB swing. As Jen Yee says, it is all about efficiency. IMO an efficient swing is an efficient swing regardless of whether you are trying to hit a baseball or a softball.

The same can be said for those who say that the HLBB swing doesn't work in softball because in softball the ball is thrown underhand. Has anybody heard that argument before? Epstein use to get this question all the time on his old message board. The answer is that the HLBB swing is not a groved swing. It is infinitely adjustable. Once you understand what type of hitter you are (homerun power hitter, singles contact hitter, line drive gap hitter) it is relatively easy to adapt your swing plane to fit your strengths. IOW it's OK for FP hitters, especialy line drive gap type FP hitters to be more upright and have a flatter swing plane.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

How much inefficiency can be attributed to physical male/female differences?

I don't think the physical make-up of girls vs boys has much to do with whether or not they can swing the bat well and hit a ball optimally. IMO, in fastpitch the angle of the pitch (pitch coming in to the batter from below the hip vs from shoulder heighth from an elevated mound in baseball); the bigger size of the softball; the shorter pitching distance; and maybe attitude (e.g aggresiveness) has more to do with any differences in swing mechanics and inefficiencies than with the girls physical make-up. Lastly, I think the expectations of the coaches and parents have a lot to do with whether or not girls can be effective and efficient hitters. If we expect the best and believe in them that they can be great hitters with solid, fundamental swing mechanics, I think they will be successful at the plate. Let's not give them excuses for mediocracy but instead focus on the games differences not any perceived physical differences.

 

[crankermo]

Wellphyt,

Excellent post. Everyones body is different. I've always told our girls to listen to their bodies it will tell you everything you need to know, they thought I was crazy but IMO it really is the answer to any question. I've said it before, but I've learned more from this board then anywhere else in my my entire life. I don't belong to a particular "Hitting Camp", I take everyones ideas and philosophies and try them out on myself and the ones I like I work into my DD training.



MY DD had the best year shes ever had this past summer. She hammered the ball and her swing looks better than it ever has. Is she a HLBB yet? no but I think she will get there because she works her butt off now. This board is the best source of info for parents and "Amature Coaches" out there, and with me being both of those I truly want to thank everyone for the ideas and dialogue. Just think about all the smiles that posters on here are responsible for when a kid get's "IT" back home working with their mom or dad. Now tell me it's not worth it.

 

[tom.guerry]

slaught and epstein have a number of narrated clips worth looking at.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Fishing Instructors Sought

IMO it has less to do with nads and more to do with the fact that some of us aren't set up with the hardware and software to post quality video. Not to mention that some of us are technology challenged when it comes to capturing, converting, editing and posting video clips on a message board.

With recent tech advances, filming video is relatively simple and cheap - the wife just got a Flip camera for under $150 and I've got a mini-DV camcorder I picked up for under $200. Its the converting, editing, and posting part that's my challenge. If members would be willing to share their expertise and experiences I bet we could create a new subforum or add to the existing "Softball Forum Rules & Help" section where "how to's", camera and software recommendations could be posted. If we can get more video-sourced "this is what I mean by stretch or extension" etc examples, I think subsequent discussions can be more productive regardless if we agree or disagree.