My Two Cents

[jinjet95]

Amy,

My husband, daughter and I attended a GetBustos clinic and were lucky enough to speak with Howard at length. We also went on the softball clinic cruise last year. We had a blast. I would love to go next year just to see Howard, but can't quite work it out. If you can manage it, it would be well worth going.

 

[Wellphyt]

Wellphyt - I believe girls can relate to MLB players and I believe that achieving a MLB swing pattern is desirable. I also believe that today's elite FP players now in college (and/or National Team/pro etc) have had similar high-level coaching and have put in similar hours practicing as their male counterparts. If this is true, then why are female FP swings not as advanced as male BB swings in the same age group (specifically 16-22 yr old age group to exclude the additional resources afforded by pro BB)? Given this observation, I think using the best female FP swings as a model for aspiring players may be a more relevant and effective approach. Is the difference I see real or perceived? And if real, how do you explain it?

Respectfully - GM

Mankin does an excellent analysis of the main difference between a high level swing and an amatuer swing. In this analysis he compares college baseball players to MLB players. The barrel paths of the college players he uses, do not compare favorably with the pro players. So I would say that there are many college baseball players who do have high level swing mechanics. I would further argue that there are MLB players who do not have high level swing mechanics. As Epstein says in his video, "It's easy to get to the Major Leagues, but it's incredibly hard to stay there".

Epstein burst onto the scene in the year 2000 with his "Do We Teach What We Really See" seminars. The target audience for his seminars were baseball players. Epstein never intended to involve himself with softball. However softball parents all across the country decided to involve themselves with Epstein as they realized that physics is physics, and the same physics it takes to hit a baseball hard is the same physics it takes to hit a softball hard. Both cases involve hitting a round ball with a round bat.

So while baseball immediately jumped on Epstein's message as well as other instructors who followed, the softball community at large didn't believe it applied to FP. IMO the big catalyst for FP was Candrea and RVP PRO, which has only in the last two to three years become relevent. RVP PRO of course is a product of Don Slaught who is another well known former MLB player.

IMO, softball is lagging behind baseball by several years. I have been debating my fellow FP coaches for at least 5 to 6 years about the merits of the baseball swing in FP. Five to six years ago thay didn't want to hear anything about it. Today they are much more receptive, partly do to the fact that Candrea has come out and basically endorsed the baseball swing in FP. So perhaps one of the reasons that the girls are a little bit behind the boys as a group, is because the coaches and instructors teaching the girls how to hit are still not totally on board. Which isn't to say they aren't excellent instructors. As I've said on here many times, there are lots of different ways to hit a ball. What some of us are looking to achieve is maximum efficiency. As Jen Yee says in her blog:

"Efficiency is key

The definition of efficiency is the ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort. This is the word Dave likes to use for swings instead of better or worse. So after watching enough swings in my time I've realized there aren't two different swings, linear and rotational, but rather more efficient. A swing is a swing is a swing, the bat travels in a roughly circular path, with the objective of hitting the ball. Enough said?

A more efficient swing is one that has the most room for error. Error being in misjudgment of timing or location, we are only human with far from perfect hand-eye coordination after all. Therefore, our goals as hitters are 1) to achieve the highest bat speed possible at the point of contact, giving the most power 2) to create a smooth bat path on the same plane in which the ball is traveling for as long as possible, giving a higher percentage of solid contact."


The one perception that I feel HC perpetuated here, whether by intent or accident; is the notion that some of us believe college FP players should swing as efficiently as MLB players. Nothing could be further from the truth. Those of us who compare FP players to MLB players are looking for what we believe is the high level pattern or blueprint. We do not expect FP players to execute the pattern as well as a MLB player.

A good example are the excellent clips posted earlier of Rod Carew and Cochran. When I watch these clips I see:

1. Both players lower their hands as they lift their front foot to coil.
2. Both players load their hands as they stride with their front foot - stretch.
3. Both players send the barrel rearward as their front heel plants resulting in separation between the hips and the hands.

I see the same pattern with Jen Yee.

In my opinion Yee and Cochran are doing the exact same steps as Ruth, Mays, Williams, Bonds and many other MLB players past and present. Are they as efficient as the pros? Probably not, but IMO they are performing the same basic technique. So when I see a video of a girl, whether it be my daughter or someone elses daughter; who doesn't coil, gets little to no stretch, doesn't send the barrel rearward and get good separation, I think "not in pattern". It doesn't mean they can't or won't hit, it just means to me that they aren't getting as much power and adjustability as they could be getting.

Do you know how hard it still is in FP today to convince a high school coach or seasoned travel ball coach that it is OK for a FP player to drop their hands during their coil for rythm? That's what I mean when I say that many in FP are behind the curve.

 

[cshilt]

Here is a clip of Jen Yee taking practice cuts. I don't see her dropping her hands, but I do see her getting separation.



Look at what she does with her back foot during the swing. I can see Dave Paetkau's influence there. Actually, having spent time with Paetkau and Carrier they teach a lot of the same things.

 

[southpaw coach]

Not sure why Howard left this board but he still posts on Ohio Fastpitch Connection Ohio Fastpitch Connection - OFC © since 1994.. Also still using username Hitter.

 

[New2Coaching]

MLB players are bigger and stronger, and for the most part a lot quicker so. Their swing style probably won't suit most females.

At the risk of being labeled "wishy-washy" I'm straddling the fence on this one.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

MLB players are bigger and stronger, and for the most part a lot quicker so. Their swing style probably won't suit most females.

At the risk of being labeled "wishy-washy" I'm straddling the fence on this one.

The swings are basically identical.

Your average fast pitch swing tends to be less efficient than your average major league baseball swing. However, that is comparing apples and oranges to a degree. College baseball and softball swings are quite comparable.

 

[Wellphyt]

Here is a clip of Jen Yee taking practice cuts. I don't see her dropping her hands, but I do see her getting separation.



Look at what she does with her back foot during the swing. I can see Dave Paetkau's influence there. Actually, having spent time with Paetkau and Carrier they teach a lot of the same things.

A FFS mentioned earlier, dropping the hands during the coil is a style issue. Some do it and some don't. However at the same time it is also not taboo and IMO it is ok for FP hitters to do it. Sorry I wasn't more clear. IMO, the coil part is or should be an absolute. IMO Yee gets a nice coil as is evidenced in her game swings that FFS posted in the "Model Swings" thread. In these same game swings I also see her tip her barrel as she brings her front foot in and does her initial toe tap. IMO, this serves the same function as the hand drop that hitters like Cochran utilize. I see it as the "live and independent hands" that Candrea talks about. IMO, these are rythm movements that coaches and instructors should encourage, or at the very least, not discourage.

IMO, her rear foot is responding to the unwinding of her hips. Or, as Ted would say, you have to get your butt moving.

 

[cshilt]

A FFS mentioned earlier, dropping the hands during the coil is a style issue.

I mentioned the same earlier as well. I just didn't want the casual reader to think that is what they should do. While it is a style choice, dropping the hands could lead to problems if they don't get into a good launch position.

IMO, her rear foot is responding to the unwinding of her hips. Or, as Ted would say, you have to get your butt moving.

Paetkau (Yee's hitting instructor) has a drill where he places a 2x6 in front of the rear foot and the hitter is supposed to finish with the rear toe pointing down on top of the board. He has another drill where he has the hitter actually kick the rear leg forward as part of the follow-thru.

 

[Wellphyt]

I mentioned the same earlier as well. I just didn't want the casual reader to think that is what they should do. While it is a style choice, dropping the hands could lead to problems if they don't get into a good launch position.



Paetkau (Yee's hitting instructor) has a drill where he places a 2x6 in front of the rear foot and the hitter is supposed to finish with the rear toe pointing down on top of the board. He has another drill where he has the hitter actually kick the rear leg forward as part of the follow-thru.

I agree that dropping the hands and not getting them back up to armpit level to launch the swing, is really bad. I don't think my daughter could pull off Cochran's move as her hands get really low. Too low IMO. Obviously it works for her and I do like Cochran's overall pattern. I prefer a tighter hand pump action for my daughter, similar to Bonds.

I do agree with FFS that the hand pump action can assist a player with synchronization and help them better understand how the overhand throw motion translates to the swing.

Regarding the back foot action I'll bow out with the following exchange between Ted Williams, Wade Boggs, Don Mattingly and Peter Gammons:

BOGGS: That's how I learned how to hit. I read your book (Science of Hitting) in high school. My father would see me on television and could call me and tell me what I was doing wrong just by the way my front knee was or wasn't being cocked at the beginning of the swing.

WILLIAMS: Did you think I transferred weight?

GAMMONS: As you start your swing, you cock your front leg, and at the point of contact you're coming up off your back foot ever so slightly. That's a shift.

WILLIAMS: That's a hard thing not to do. It's a very little weight shift, more of an unwinding of the hips. A weight shift upsets balance.

BOGGS: I don't know what else you can call it. O.K., tell me how you think I swing?

WILLIAMS: I think you're balanced. But you talk about shifting weight.

MATTINGLY: All good hitters shift their weight. I can't believe they don't. Show me how you get back.

WILLIAMS: I'm doing it with my hips.

 

[tom.guerry]

the stepover 2x 6 drill encourages rear hip thrust which is compatible with the HLBB swing/pattern.

very different from hip rotation where back foot stays on ground longer, best described in 2 v 1 plane golf swing patterns:

Plane Truth Blog - Video Analysis Tutorials - Two Plane from Down the Line

Plane Truth Blog - Video Analysis Tutorials - One Plane from Down the Line

You want to get your a** into the swing (Williams), but you have to know how.