Turning the barrel 6

[mann]

Mann, what do you mean when you use the word description.

To me connected means using the shoulder rotation, and using the force without falling of the merry go round. Does not mean locked. but it should not be sloppy.

such as in this gif from RDbass.

Very good connection in that front arm.

You can also whip off of this shoulder rotation.

He is also extending his back arm while his shoulders are rotating with his bat still lagging. what a great example of whipping the bat. He is getting extra force with the extending arm.

 

[mann]

Hey, we have more than hitting in common...I used to race boats back in the day, and I agree that your analogy of a drag boat start vs. a drag car start is a better analogy of an actual "running start", but as julray correctly states....


...regardless of a running start or not, when the light says "GO!", you better already be heading in the right direction or you'll never cross the finish line at the "predetermined spot".

IOWs, if we both read "GO!" at the same time, and you're "pedaling" the car (hopefully you get the drag reference) down the track to "launch" again later once you figure out where you're going, while I'm not letting off the pedal at all while I'm racing down the track to my already "predetermined spot"...who's going to win 9 times outta 10?

In Your swing belief, do the hands move before you know where the ball is? We all know that mind set would be its the pitch i want, say looking middle in. If so, what are they doing?

 

[Mudders Brudder]

[MENTION=12657]Mudders Brudder[/MENTION]… Here is another way of looking at the differences (or similarities, as I consider them...). Please watch the attached video. Matt Antonelli has some pretty good videos. This one provides a fair description of what I consider TTB. Curious if you are in agreement with his description.

I've seen some of Matt's other videos before, and I think they're as good as they get out there. So yes, I'm in total agreement with his description of TTB in the video you just provided. Especially the very last part...

Back during all of the "hitting wars" happening elsewhere some 10-12 years ago, I had met locally several members of the "cult" and their beloved or despised "leader" just so I could see in person what all of these "new" revelations were that were causing/creating so much contempt, and turmoil then...and surprisingly, still are today. It was probably as interesting in seeing the very different "in person" personas compared to their "online" ones, as much as it was interesting, and informative to finally see the desired actions compared to their online descriptions (that were, and still are quite poor in the written word). But I digress from the "very last part" of Matts's clip....

But what I found was that there was more to TTB than just TTB with the forearms/hands at the time, even though at that 2.5 day meet up I was told there was really not, that all you had to do was "TTB behind the corner", and presto HL hitter. So a couple months later I flew out to TX to meet up with another well known solider in the war who continues to still fight the battle elsewhere as well.

What I wanted to get was a "yes" or "no" on from what I took away from the first meeting from him was...could he see that a large part of TTB was/had already started as a byproduct of the proper lower half movements leading the hands/barrel to the ball? After several demos (and contretemps), he finally agreed/confirmed that "Yes"...the proper turning of the lower half did indeed "tilt", and start to turn the upper half, which in turn (no pun intended) started the TTB that then only needed to be assisted in acceleration with the forearms/hands, and was off to the races...and what I see Matt has figured out, and shared in the "very last part" of the video (2:48 mark).

This is why when you wrote this yesterday...

I don't dispute the importance of the barrel path. In fact, I am completely on board with that. But I also think a complete focus on barrel path may not work for all students. Sometimes a student may focus so much on TTB that their hands become 'disconnected' (probably not the best term to use...) and lose their direction. They become a little loopy in some cases. Actually not too dissimilar to what Mr. Latta is demonstrating in one of those videos. This can also manifest itself with some hitters by having a tendency to get their rear elbow stuck instead of moving freely through the swing. In most cases I have found that this is caused by the hips and the hands not being in sync with each other. IMO, your teaching cue of 'hitting the ball with your rear hip', sets the direction of the hands, and therefore why you do not need to have a 'hand path' focus. It's all a matter of how best to help the student understand.

...you now know where it comes from, and one of the secrets I've used (and shared also) of why the "hand path" (IMO) is a non-teach...IF the hitter is taught to use the lower half correctly.

This is also why (IMO) moving out to a 50/50 position as some still teach (when I worked with Dave Hudgens in 2003 he had already gone you "60/40 or even 70/30", and why you've seen me write those numbers before...which IMO was/is also the precursor to the "FbC" that was "discovered"/coined several years later) is problematic, because when the lower half is "fired", there is no natural "tilt" since the weight is equal dispersed over the COM, and thusly, the hitter must either lean back (not good), or the swing becomes powered with the shoulders more so than the lower half/hips.

Coincidentally, if you "move out" to that 60/40-70/30 "PoP", it makes "Shift AND Swing" much easier, and the "Shift THEN Swing" movement much more difficult. Not saying you can't "STS" from there as I've seen it happen, but that it's just much harder to do, and easier for the instructor to correct when it does happen...but that too again, is for another place or time.

The next gif is just the first piece of it. To me this is where a lot of the conflict occurs. Some of the people that speak of hand path, early direction, flashing the knob, etc. are essentially talking about this portion. Before the barrel really starts to turn very much. It's all a matter of what end of the bat you want to focus on. The barrel? Yes, this is the end of the bat that you utilize to hit the ball (hopefully...). It is also the easier part of the bat to watch movement. Just a small movement on the knob side is going to create a much larger movement on the barrel side. The knob? Yes, this is the end that the hands are attached to. And I don't think it is arguable that the barrel would never turn if the hands didn't make it happen. It just seems to me that some people prefer to focus on the end of the bat that is attached to the hands and watching what direction the knob is pointing and when. Just my .02...

Yes, no one is disputing that the hands don't play a big part of TTB, but anytime an instructor uses "hands/knob to the ball", there's one word in there that disrupts the entire concept of TTB, and getting said barrel to the ball...and that's the word "to"...which denotes moving the hands/knob "to" the ball...which creates the actual "bat drag" (not the silly elbow ahead of whatever one) that we see in so many hitters.

Now I'm OK with "lasering" the ball, or "flashing" the knob at the ball...but both of those have to happen as a result of the body already turning to it, and simply as a cue to get the hands to accelerate the bat/barrel turn early, or really at "launch". But neither (IMO) should be taught to create a hand path "Straight and direct" to the ball, which (again IMO) leads to or creates nothing but the "down and to" bat/barrel path that Matt showed just prior to his explanation of using the lower half/body to initiate the TTB process we're/I'm looking for.

Nice post FP, I think you've got a great grasp of the concepts, and are doing a great job explaining them, and how some of them are as GH says, "nuances" of one another, or even the same thing(s) at times. Well done sir, well done.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

In Your swing belief, do the hands move before you know where the ball is? We all know that mind set would be its the pitch i want, say looking middle in. If so, what are they doing?

All depends on what you mean by "do the hands move". They move to the "launch" position "before you know where the ball is", but they do not move "to" (or towards) the ball "before you know where the ball is"...and/or forward before you "launch" the barrel.

And if you or anyone shows me this clip in an attempt to impugn that...

...I'm gonna tell you that Arod had no intention or attempt of ever "launching" that swing.

 

[Work=wins]

I've seen some of Matt's other videos before, and I think they're as good as they get out there. So yes, I'm in total agreement with his description of TTB in the video you just provided. Especially the very last part...

Back during all of the "hitting wars" happening elsewhere some 10-12 years ago, I had met locally several members of the "cult" and their beloved or despised "leader" just so I could see in person what all of these "new" revelations were that were causing/creating so much contempt, and turmoil then...and surprisingly, still are today. It was probably as interesting in seeing the very different "in person" personas compared to their "online" ones, as much as it was interesting, and informative to finally see the desired actions compared to their online descriptions (that were, and still are quite poor in the written word). But I digress from the "very last part" of Matts's clip....

But what I found was that there was more to TTB than just TTB with the forearms/hands at the time, even though at that 2.5 day meet up I was told there was really not, that all you had to do was "TTB behind the corner", and presto HL hitter. So a couple months later I flew out to TX to meet up with another well known solider in the war who continues to still fight the battle elsewhere as well.

What I wanted to get was a "yes" or "no" on from what I took away from the first meeting from him was...could he see that a large part of TTB was/had already started as a byproduct of the proper lower half movements leading the hands/barrel to the ball? After several demos (and contretemps), he finally agreed/confirmed that "Yes"...the proper turning of the lower half did indeed "tilt", and start to turn the upper half, which in turn (no pun intended) started the TTB that then only needed to be assisted in acceleration with the forearms/hands, and was off to the races...and what I see Matt has figured out, and shared in the "very last part" of the video (2:48 mark).

This is why when you wrote this yesterday...

...you now know where it comes from, and one of the secrets I've used (and shared also) of why the "hand path" (IMO) is a non-teach...IF the hitter is taught to use the lower half correctly.

This is also why (IMO) moving out to a 50/50 position as some still teach (when I worked with Dave Hudgens in 2003 he had already gone you "60/40 or even 70/30", and why you've seen me write those numbers before...which IMO was/is also the precursor to the "FbC" that was "discovered"/coined several years later) is problematic, because when the lower half is "fired", there is no natural "tilt" since the weight is equal dispersed over the COM, and thusly, the hitter must either lean back (not good), or the swing becomes powered with the shoulders more so than the lower half/hips.

Coincidentally, if you "move out" to that 60/40-70/30 "PoP", it makes "Shift AND Swing" much easier, and the "Shift THEN Swing" movement much more difficult. Not saying you can't "STS" from there as I've seen it happen, but that it's just much harder to do, and easier for the instructor to correct when it does happen...but that too again, is for another place or time.


Yes, no one is disputing that the hands don't play a big part of TTB, but anytime an instructor uses "hands/knob to the ball", there's one word in there that disrupts the entire concept of TTB, and getting said barrel to the ball...and that's the word "to"...which denotes moving the hands/knob "to" the ball...which creates the actual "bat drag" (not the silly elbow ahead of whatever one) that we see in so many hitters.

Now I'm OK with "lasering" the ball, or "flashing" the knob at the ball...but both of those have to happen as a result of the body already turning to it, and simply as a cue to get the hands to accelerate the bat/barrel turn early, or really at "launch". But neither (IMO) should be taught to create a hand path "Straight and direct" to the ball, which (again IMO) leads to or creates nothing but the "down and to" bat/barrel path that Matt showed just prior to his explanation of using the lower half/body to initiate the TTB process we're/I'm looking for.

Nice post FP, I think you've got a great grasp of the concepts, and are doing a great job explaining them, and how some of them are as GH says, "nuances" of one another, or even the same thing(s) at times. Well done sir, well done.

As respectfully possible....
Have you used the Hanson principle against your hitters? That’s the real judge for me. No matter what anyone says. I always check to make sure I am doing right by my hitters. Reason why I ask is , I don’t recall any pro or pro coach use the back hip for ‘direction’ or saying hand path is a no teach. I mean unless you don’t care for the mlb pattern.
I can understand why you don’t like knob to the ball. Your hitter a few pages back has a false weight transfer/separation. IOW he doesn’t have a forward move to actually separate, so knob to the ball would be tough from the backside . Your hitter has a coil in place mechanic . Hence the no extension(chicken wing, left side, over the top swing , shoulder driven )and no release of the backside(squish the big)type swing. You said you don’t teach a release as well. Your hitter doesn’t release anything(Probably should reconsider that).Power killers imo. If your hitters lunge check out Donny’s presentation. He has a full proof way to not lunge . Worked for me. His whole presentation is quite good and applicable . Lotta said the same thing by the way ‘ you have to get forward ‘. Tewks is a big advocate of a forward move as well. He actually based his whole first book around it , if I’m not mistaken. Thats 2 actual mlb hitting gurus who preach a forward move , not a 70/30 or 60/40 stay back mechanic . Staying back is actually at gather imo. As you move out , you resist with the backside until it’s time to go. That’s the mlb pattern. This is why you won’t see the backside ‘ release ‘ until go( the tell is the back knee). It won’t go down and in until GO. The only way to do that while moving forward yet staying ‘back’? Stretch forward with the backside in control (coil)to control the weight. Release from the backside . Of course there is a timing element to that. Hence , why hitting is so hard and why great pitchers are the ones that can change speeds and hit spots, and the hard throwers are 1 inning guys.

Please don’t take my critiques personal.

Respectfully,
Work=Wins

 

[FP26]

As respectfully possible....
Have you used the Hanson principle against your hitters? That’s the real judge for me. No matter what anyone says. I always check to make sure I am doing right by my hitters. Reason why I ask is , I don’t recall any pro or pro coach use the back hip for ‘direction’ or saying hand path is a no teach. I mean unless you don’t care for the mlb pattern.
I can understand why you don’t like knob to the ball. Your hitter a few pages back has a false weight transfer/separation. IOW he doesn’t have a forward move to actually separate, so knob to the ball would be tough from the backside . Your hitter has a coil in place mechanic . Hence the no extension(chicken wing, left side, over the top swing , shoulder driven )and no release of the backside(squish the big)type swing. You said you don’t teach a release as well. Your hitter doesn’t release anything(Probably should reconsider that).Power killers imo. If your hitters lunge check out Donny’s presentation. He has a full proof way to not lunge . Worked for me. His whole presentation is quite good and applicable . Lotta said the same thing by the way ‘ you have to get forward ‘. Tewks is a big advocate of a forward move as well. He actually based his whole first book around it , if I’m not mistaken. Thats 2 actual mlb hitting gurus who preach a forward move , not a 70/30 or 60/40 stay back mechanic . Staying back is actually at gather imo. As you move out , you resist with the backside until it’s time to go. That’s the mlb pattern. This is why you won’t see the backside ‘ release ‘ until go( the tell is the back knee). It won’t go down and in until GO. The only way to do that while moving forward yet staying ‘back’? Stretch forward with the backside in control (coil)to control the weight. Release from the backside . Of course there is a timing element to that. Hence , why hitting is so hard and why great pitchers are the ones that can change speeds and hit spots, and the hard throwers are 1 inning guys.

Please don’t take my critiques personal.

Respectfully,
Work=Wins

Not Mud, but I will offer my opinion. Over the past few years, Mud and I have talked at length about different 'theories' and 'hit the ball with your rear hip' is one that we discussed several times. I actually used it with my DD and found some success with it. In this particular case it goes back a ways... DD is primarily a pitcher. We were able to find her a very good pitching coach (in my opinion) and he utilizes the rear hip as a teaching tool. When she was trying to hone her locations, her coach suggested that she throw her rear hip (right hip) towards her target (in, out, high, low). By adjusting where her rear hip is going and it's angle, she was better able to control her pitches. Then when Mud mentioned that same goal in regards to hitting, it made immediate sense to me, and more importantly to DD. So I am personally a believer in the cue. That said, it is not the only way to accomplish the goal. I have no issue with using other cues. If they work for you (or anyone else), more power to you, and congratulations.

Honestly, DD's favorite hitting phrase is "drop the pig in the tornado". Personally I interpret this as a top down swing (triggered by the hands, or 'the pig') being pulled by the lower half (or 'the tornado'). So, at least in my opinion, 'hit the ball with your rear hip' has merit.

 

[Work=wins]

Not Mud, but I will offer my opinion. Over the past few years, Mud and I have talked at length about different 'theories' and 'hit the ball with your rear hip' is one that we discussed several times. I actually used it with my DD and found some success with it. In this particular case it goes back a ways... DD is primarily a pitcher. We were able to find her a very good pitching coach (in my opinion) and he utilizes the rear hip as a teaching tool. When she was trying to hone her locations, her coach suggested that she throw her rear hip (right hip) towards her target (in, out, high, low). By adjusting where her rear hip is going and it's angle, she was better able to control her pitches. Then when Mud mentioned that same goal in regards to hitting, it made immediate sense to me, and more importantly to DD. So I am personally a believer in the cue. That said, it is not the only way to accomplish the goal. I have no issue with using other cues. If they work for you (or anyone else), more power to you, and congratulations.

Honestly, DD's favorite hitting phrase is "drop the pig in the tornado". Personally I interpret this as a top down swing (triggered by the hands, or 'the pig') being pulled by the lower half (or 'the tornado'). So, at least in my opinion, 'hit the ball with your rear hip' has merit.

Thanks for the response. IMO pig in a tornado is a great cue. I don’t believe in a top down , down up mechanic . I believe the swing fires together. The hips LEAD, they don’t fire first. Everything fires together.The release of the backside and hands are synced imo.

 

[FP26]

Thanks for the response. IMO pig in a tornado is a great cue. I don’t believe in a top down , down up mechanic . I believe the swing fires together. The hips LEAD, they don’t fire first. Everything fires together.The release of the backside and hands are synced imo.

'top down, bottom up' is another one of those forum quotes that get's thrown around. My personal opinion is the hands are the 'trigger' in the overall sequence. I do agree with your differentiation between 'lead' and 'fire first'. Another question that has been discussed at length is if the hips actual 'fire' or are they 'fired'?

 

[Work=wins]

'top down, bottom up' is another one of those forum quotes that get's thrown around. My personal opinion is the hands are the 'trigger' in the overall sequence. I do agree with your differentiation between 'lead' and 'fire first'. Another question that has been discussed at length is if the hips actual 'fire' or are they 'fired'?

I think ‘released’ is a better description. If your resisting. All you can do is release correct?

I use the hands as a trigger as well. ‘Pig in the tornado’ is a game changer IMO.

 

[tjintx]

OMG! are you folks having a nice wholesome discussion about hitting, or at least swinging a thing called a bat? Impressive!! I will do my best to NOT distract from any goodness that is happening here.
A few of you are way more eloquent than I and that can often be intimidating, yet My core belief is so strong that I cannot surrender to your words.
Believe me when i say I "understand" what you are saying, AND , when I say that, I mean I understand what you are saying as it relates to "your" beliefs. That doesn't necessarily mean i agree or disagree. It just means I understand what you are saying... and I ask that you try to understand what I am saying as it relates to MY beliefs, not yours.....