Turning the barrel 6

[Mudders Brudder]

Since you don’t believe in a forward move with the head how does the body get forward in your teachings ?wouldnt the player be out of balance if they try to keep their head back ? On the backside to much? I like a good forward by coil move . It encourages a good back side release and an opportunity to achieve better balance dynamically. Jmo

Sorry Mudders, I didn't mean to cut out all the content you wrote here, just wanted to shorten my post up. So if you look at the Justin Stone "one drill fixes all", or an example of Donaldson, Miggy, Bautista, Trout etc, they move their upper body forward (including head ) prior to heal plant. Maybe I am misunderstanding your here.

I don't think you folks are "misunderstanding" anything from the way I typed it, but rather I only touched on it, didn't explain it well, and why I said, "...but that's for another post/discussion".

I'm not saying that the head doesn't move forward at all in the "FbC" process, but rather that I don't believe it should be moved in the manner or the extent that to which Coach Latta is describing it should. That is that he says/shows he moves the head out on top of the entire body to a 50/50 location...rather than I'd much prefer it move only a slight bit forward as the hitter works to kept his top half "back", and which the head is sitting on...

...I don't believe any of these hitters have "moved out" to a "50/50" weight distribution just prior to the launch of their swing, but that just maybe the "feel" I get from their "PoP" position loading.

Here's a hitter who I equate to what Coach Latta is saying/showing....

...moving out with his whole body to the ball until he gets to the "50/50" weight distribution, and then attempts to swing from there. From that forward, 50/50 position, I think we can all "feel" how difficult it is trying to "golf"/TTB from that position, even though Joe's still attempting to...and now go to the 8:30 minute mark of the clip, and look how much Coach Latta's demo swing looks like that one above...


So now compare that to "Donaldson, Miggy, Bautista, Trout"...do they stride forward to that 50/50 weight distribution, or is it more like 60/40, or even 70/30? Do their heads move forward as far as Thurston and Coach Latta's demo, or is the some, but much less forward head movement in their loads prior to their swings? (Sorry, I don't have any of those swings in my new image host or I'd post them for you to look at. If you have some please share them, and can compare from there if you disagree with the above assessments).

 

[Work=wins]

Maybe the "interpretation bias" thing is at work here for the two of us, but I don't know/understand how "Knob to the ball makes sense to me", and so does "Lattas’ stuff makes sense to me"...when to me, Doug was talking specifically (IMO) about not pulling/taking the knob/hands forward with the shoulder(s) and/or lead arm.

To add to the "straight and direct" comment, I like what HYP used to say, in that the swing was "rotational then linear" in describing it, and either he or someone else took that, and equated it to the Nike Swoosh....

...in that a hitter needs that "rotational" (dare I say "rearward"?) barrel movement early, in order to get the bat/barrel "behind" the ball to complete the "linear"/"straight" portion of the swing "through" it.

So when I hear "straight and direct", I equate that from point A to point B, and if using the Trout pic above, that would in that case show a "straight" smoke stream from the very top of the Swoosh, over the top of his rear shoulder as it continues "down and to" the ball...

(Please excuse the sloppy graphics, the software doesn't have a straight line tool )

Since there's more than one post/reply wrt to the second part or question of your post, and head movement, I'll address them together following this post.

Listen to 2:30 mark to 3:20 mark. He is talking about the shoulders pulling off . He wants the hands to be in control . Underneath the shoulders . Direct path.Hes says when you think ‘ barrel’ (as he motions an over the top casty action) instead of underneath and straight.

When he says to ‘golf’ he is talking about the butt end of the club leading. If you have ever taken a golf lesson . One of the first things they teach you is to lead with the butt end ( knob ) of the club. Never the head. I believe if you get the right hand path the barrel path will just be an automatic. Cause and effect IMO.


https://youtu.be/nv6vCf0MzT8

 

[_MIA_]

I don't think you folks are "misunderstanding" anything from the way I typed it, but rather I only touched on it, didn't explain it well, and why I said, "...but that's for another post/discussion".

I'm not saying that the head doesn't move forward at all in the "FbC" process, but rather that I don't believe it should be moved in the manner or the extent that to which Coach Latta is describing it should. That is that he says/shows he moves the head out on top of the entire body to a 50/50 location...rather than I'd much prefer it move only a slight bit forward as the hitter works to kept his top half "back", and which the head is sitting on...

...I don't believe any of these hitters have "moved out" to a "50/50" weight distribution just prior to the launch of their swing, but that just maybe the "feel" I get from their "PoP" position loading.

Here's a hitter who I equate to what Coach Latta is saying/showing....

...moving out with his whole body to the ball until he gets to the "50/50" weight distribution, and then attempts to swing from there. From that forward, 50/50 position, I think we can all "feel" how difficult it is trying to "golf"/TTB from that position, even though Joe's still attempting to...and now go to the 8:30 minute mark of the clip, and look how much Coach Latta's demo swing looks like that one above...


So now compare that to "Donaldson, Miggy, Bautista, Trout"...do they stride forward to that 50/50 weight distribution, or is it more like 60/40, or even 70/30? Do their heads move forward as far as Thurston and Coach Latta's demo, or is the some, but much less forward head movement in their loads prior to their swings? (Sorry, I don't have any of those swings in my new image host or I'd post them for you to look at. If you have some please share them, and can compare from there if you disagree with the above assessments).

I would think that the length of the stride, even for guys who are 70/30, is going to determine a majority of the amount of horizontal head movement pre-launch. Likewise guys that stand more upright will likely have more vertical head movement.

That said, for a given stride length, the guy who is 50/50 will likely have more head movement than the guy who is 70/30 (hence my majority qualifier above)..which probably was the cruxt of your argument.

Not sure if Thurston was fooled there or not, but it looks like if someone gave him a (slight) shove forward (above his center of mass) as he was swinging he would fall over..probably pretty telling.

 

[Work=wins]

I don't think you folks are "misunderstanding" anything from the way I typed it, but rather I only touched on it, didn't explain it well, and why I said, "...but that's for another post/discussion".

I'm not saying that the head doesn't move forward at all in the "FbC" process, but rather that I don't believe it should be moved in the manner or the extent that to which Coach Latta is describing it should. That is that he says/shows he moves the head out on top of the entire body to a 50/50 location...rather than I'd much prefer it move only a slight bit forward as the hitter works to kept his top half "back", and which the head is sitting on...

...I don't believe any of these hitters have "moved out" to a "50/50" weight distribution just prior to the launch of their swing, but that just maybe the "feel" I get from their "PoP" position loading.

Here's a hitter who I equate to what Coach Latta is saying/showing....

...moving out with his whole body to the ball until he gets to the "50/50" weight distribution, and then attempts to swing from there. From that forward, 50/50 position, I think we can all "feel" how difficult it is trying to "golf"/TTB from that position, even though Joe's still attempting to...and now go to the 8:30 minute mark of the clip, and look how much Coach Latta's demo swing looks like that one above...


So now compare that to "Donaldson, Miggy, Bautista, Trout"...do they stride forward to that 50/50 weight distribution, or is it more like 60/40, or even 70/30? Do their heads move forward as far as Thurston and Coach Latta's demo, or is the some, but much less forward head movement in their loads prior to their swings? (Sorry, I don't have any of those swings in my new image host or I'd post them for you to look at. If you have some please share them, and can compare from there if you disagree with the above assessments).

The example you used was of a guy with an ‘over the top’ swing.

https://youtu.be/hzbksoXEZu8
Here’s his student.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

I wish I had joined these forums earlier. HYP seems like someone I would like to discuss hitting with. I have enjoyed reading some of the older posts.

"Behind and through" is something I use quite regularly, as I think it provides a very good description of barrel path. As illustrated by the Nike swoosh.

"Straight and direct" IMO is more about hand path. The gif below demonstrates a "straight and direct" hand path, IMO.

OK, excellent post, and maybe why there's as much confusion with some of this stuff as there is.

Yes, "barrel path"...I teach barrel path, and never "hand path", simply because the barrel is what I'm/we're trying to hit the ball with...not the hands or knob (told you of the story of what I ask my hitters who were previously taught "hands/know to the ball"..hahaha).

Also, while one might want to teach "hands/knob to the ball", how to you teach how long a hitter should be taking them to the ball? IOWs, if we look at Pedroia's "hand path" to the ball, take a look at how short that "Straight and direct" really is....

...that's it, and most of that was even rotational for a good part of it in the beginning.

Because once we get past that spot in the swing, the hands/knob are no longer going any where near "Straight and direct" to the ball...

...but rather making a left hand turn perpendicular, and away from it in order to get the barrel to the ball.

So the question to all, is how much "straight and direct" of the hands/knob in a swing is there really?

PS. Granted, that's an inside pitch, but if you're a hitting coach using the "hands/knob" to the ball instruction, how do you reconcile the very little or really almost no ""straight and direct" path the hands, and/or knob should take to that ball?

With barrel path instruction, I simply tell them to clear the hips, and hands earlier to stay inside the ball in order to get the barrel to it...ezy pezy (well not really, but just had to say it...lol).

 

[Mudders Brudder]

Listen to 2:30 mark to 3:20 mark. He is talking about the shoulders pulling off . He wants the hands to be in control . Underneath the shoulders . Direct path.Hes says when you think ‘ barrel’ (as he motions an over the top casty action) instead of underneath and straight.

When he says to ‘golf’ he is talking about the butt end of the club leading. If you have ever taken a golf lesson . One of the first things they teach you is to lead with the butt end ( knob ) of the club. Never the head. I believe if you get the right hand path the barrel path will just be an automatic. Cause and effect IMO.


https://youtu.be/nv6vCf0MzT8

OK, again I think we're back to that "interpretation bias" thing, because you're hearing him talk about the "butt end" of the bat, when I specifically heard, and quoted him saying...

3) At the 2:45 mark he's shows "thinking" with the barrel, and "When I think with the barrel, if I think with the barrel I try to get the barrel down...uhum...I just think/swing with my hands. I don't care what happens up here...hands". Again, to me that's just another reinforcement of TTB with the hands to get them "behind" the ball early.

So maybe I interpreted that incorrectly, and he's thinking about the "butt/knob" end of the bat vs the barrel...but if that's the case, a hitter still has to TTB in order to "golf" it, and can't just pull the hands/knob/butt end "down and to" the ball, and expect the barrel to not pound that ball into the dirt in from of her/him.

I'll just have to leave it at that, and let others decide what path they want to take, and with what.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

The example you used was of a guy with an ‘over the top’ swing.

Was it...what went "over the top" according to Coach Latta demo swing at the mark I previously posted?

https://youtu.be/hzbksoXEZu8
Here’s his student.

Yes, and would you say that his weight distribution is 50/50 at toe touch just prior to him launching his swing? Which btw, he's actually launching before his front heel is even all the way firmly planted on the ground (if you need a gif to see that just let me know).

OK, gotta run folks, and get at least something done around here, so will be back later...definitely enjoying the conversations!!

 

[rdbass]

Yes, and would you say that his weight distribution is 50/50 at toe touch just prior to him launching his swing? Which btw, he's actually launching before his front heel is even all the way firmly planted on the ground (if you need a gif to see that just let me know).

 

[FP26]

OK, excellent post, and maybe why there's as much confusion with some of this stuff as there is.

Yes, "barrel path"...I teach barrel path, and never "hand path", simply because the barrel is what I'm/we're trying to hit the ball with...not the hands or knob (told you of the story of what I ask my hitters who were previously taught "hands/know to the ball"..hahaha).

Also, while one might want to teach "hands/knob to the ball", how to you teach how long a hitter should be taking them to the ball? IOWs, if we look at Pedroia's "hand path" to the ball, take a look at how short that "Straight and direct" really is....

...that's it, and most of that was even rotational for a good part of it in the beginning.

Because once we get past that spot in the swing, the hands/knob are no longer going any where near "Straight and direct" to the ball...

...but rather making a left hand turn perpendicular, and away from it in order to get the barrel to the ball.

So the question to all, is how much "straight and direct" of the hands/knob in a swing is there really?

PS. Granted, that's an inside pitch, but if you're a hitting coach using the "hands/knob" to the ball instruction, how do you reconcile the very little or really almost no ""straight and direct" path the hands, and/or knob should take to that ball?

With barrel path instruction, I simply tell them to clear the hips, and hands earlier to stay inside the ball in order to get the barrel to it...ezy pezy (well not really, but just had to say it...lol).

All depends on where the 'straight and direct' is taking you I suppose. In my personal application, it isn't a 'to the ball' approach. A mentor of mine focused on two phrases 'hands inside the ball' and 'hands above the ball'. Yes I realize they seem like common sense, but I think the 'inside the ball' approach was his way of being contrary to the other local instructors that preached 'knob to the ball'. Most hitters we both have worked with come with that 'knob to the ball' mindset (very prevalent in this region), so we try to utilize an approach that is at least similar in format to help in understanding.

I don't dispute the importance of the barrel path. In fact, I am completely on board with that. But I also think a complete focus on barrel path may not work for all students. Sometimes a student may focus so much on TTB that their hands become 'disconnected' (probably not the best term to use...) and lose their direction. They become a little loopy in some cases. Actually not too dissimilar to what Mr. Latta is demonstrating in one of those videos. This can also manifest itself with some hitters by having a tendency to get their rear elbow stuck instead of moving freely through the swing. In most cases I have found that this is caused by the hips and the hands not being in sync with each other. IMO, your teaching cue of 'hitting the ball with your rear hip', sets the direction of the hands, and therefore why you do not need to have a 'hand path' focus. It's all a matter of how best to help the student understand.

Edited to add: FYI. There are a few different views on 'knob to the ball' that are very different IMO> One is the more traditional 'knob to ball' approach that most people seem to be familiar with. The other is more of a 'flash the knob at the ball' or 'laser the ball' approach. The former utilizes a lateral move of the knob that doesn't seem to be compatible with TTB. The other is more of a TTB with direction combination type thing. Again, there are so many different terms and it seems like each term has multiple definitions, so it all becomes hard to follow.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

FP , Do you still believe that u stay connected till launch?

Mann, what do you mean when you use the word description.