Now that's a long subject. How should one evaluate instructors. Steve is very careful about claiming a student. Even when a student gives him credit for improved performance he won't accept credit unless he knows how and what the hitter has worked on and sees what the hitter is doing now in games. On the other hand, a certain college team known for their power bought one of a certain well known instructor's tapes. Said instructor then claimed credit for the college team's hitting power on his website. When I talked to the college coach about it, coach said no, we didn't use it. Steve has spent time on the field with hitters and coaches of top programs but you won't see him talking about it on his website. He talks about the information, what elite hitters do, his thoughts on it, motor learning ideas etc. He has an active website where you can read his stuff and others questions and comments along with video clips of kids new to his ideas as well as more advanced hitters working on his ideas.
Rotational Hitting
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Now that's a long subject. How should one evaluate instructors. Steve is very careful about claiming a student. Even when a student gives him credit for improved performance he won't accept credit unless he knows how and what the hitter has worked on and sees what the hitter is doing now in games. On the other hand, a certain college team known for their power bought one of a certain well known instructor's tapes. Said instructor then claimed credit for the college team's hitting power on his website. When I talked to the college coach about it, coach said no, we didn't use it. Steve has spent time on the field with hitters and coaches of top programs but you won't see him talking about it on his website. He talks about the information, what elite hitters do, his thoughts on it, motor learning ideas etc. He has an active website where you can read his stuff and others questions and comments along with video clips of kids new to his ideas as well as more advanced hitters working on his ideas.
I would think that students of hitting would study everyone's material and then develop their own ideas. I know that I do. To say that someone that teaches hitting in Houston has never heard of Englishbey, tells me that that person isn't trying to improve his or her knowledge.
Just read a thread on Steve's site and had a thought I wanted to add here. You know the instructor that impresses me? The average parent who knows little but studies the subject, puts his kid's swing up on Steve's site or any site. Takes criticism and suggestions, and then later puts his kid's latest efforts up on the same thread or site and you know what? The kid has implemented a bunch of the suggestions and the kid is BETTER. Measurably in terms of quickness as well as in terms of closer to resembling elite hitters. THAT dad or mom is the instructor I take my hat off to. Not to denigrate the professional but they are supposed to be good at what they do. This parent producing obvious results as an amateur who has more passion to help their kid than anyone in the world, jumping into something brand new and succeeding-that's worth a standing ovation in my book.
Did'nt mean to make people mad, just trying to get some background info on someone. I see that Doran guy has softball camp in New Lenox Il. July 14-16 with Larry Ray,Arizona Angel Santiago,UNLV and Amanda Freed so if you're in that area check it out and let us know.
First post...great site!!
I have been reading over this "Rotational Hitting" post the last few days with alot of interest. My DD plays on a 12U traveling ball team and uses the Epstein hitting method, with good results, especially compared to the linear way she was originally taught by her first instructor. She has a good eye and I admit she consistently made contact with the linear approach, but she rarely "drove" the ball and was hitting alot of ground balls. Nothing wrong with ground balls, but we both realized with her strength, size and fact she is no speed demon, she needed to be able to drive the ball into the gaps at times. As she got older and defenses improved, she would not be as succussful without being able to keep the defense honest.
With some of the comments I have read on Epstein, I was hoping I could get a bit more elaboration. Everyone on here has some great points on hitting and I am not questioning, just curious as to what brought some of you to the conclusions you made.
I saw that it was mentioned several times that Epstein was great for young hitters, but the issues below which eventually arise...
Mark H - an "unnecessary ceiling"
Slapper 23 - Epstein has "holes"
Hit Dr. 24 - Epstein has "false movements"
Just looking for specifics...mostly from curiosity. I played baseball and softball (Slow Pitch) since I was 5, but I realize I am in no way an adequate gauge on how to teach the right swing. I just always swung....HA!
I only mention the above posters because each stood out in my mind. You all make great points. But I agree that we each have to use every resource and study to learn so we can truly evaluate what works.
Thanks everyone!!
I have been reading over this "Rotational Hitting" post the last few days with alot of interest. My DD plays on a 12U traveling ball team and uses the Epstein hitting method, with good results, especially compared to the linear way she was originally taught by her first instructor. She has a good eye and I admit she consistently made contact with the linear approach, but she rarely "drove" the ball and was hitting alot of ground balls. Nothing wrong with ground balls, but we both realized with her strength, size and fact she is no speed demon, she needed to be able to drive the ball into the gaps at times. As she got older and defenses improved, she would not be as succussful without being able to keep the defense honest.
With some of the comments I have read on Epstein, I was hoping I could get a bit more elaboration. Everyone on here has some great points on hitting and I am not questioning, just curious as to what brought some of you to the conclusions you made.
I saw that it was mentioned several times that Epstein was great for young hitters, but the issues below which eventually arise...
Mark H - an "unnecessary ceiling"
Slapper 23 - Epstein has "holes"
Hit Dr. 24 - Epstein has "false movements"
Just looking for specifics...mostly from curiosity. I played baseball and softball (Slow Pitch) since I was 5, but I realize I am in no way an adequate gauge on how to teach the right swing. I just always swung....HA!
I only mention the above posters because each stood out in my mind. You all make great points. But I agree that we each have to use every resource and study to learn so we can truly evaluate what works.
Thanks everyone!!
That's the place that I'm trying to get to
I know I have a ways to go still, though. At least I'm going to start a lot better with my 2 year old DD (if she loves ball as much as my 13 year old does).David, I'm far from an expert, but the 2 things that I can think of right off with Epstein that I don't agree with are "counter-rotation" (winding the rubber band) and his weight distribution (weight on back foot at contact).
Also, if I remember correctly, some of the swings of kids that I have seen attributed to his teaching (I think from his website, not sure....) seem like they have a slight "outside-in swing" tendency and bat drag, but I could be confused about where I saw those clips, I've looked at quite a bit of stuff over the last 8ish months
- May 9, 2008
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Hi David May,
Glad to hear your dd's travel team has had such good results. When your team learned the Epstein Hitting System did they have Epstein Certified instructors or did the Coach go off of his videos?
Just Curious,
Pops
Hi David May,
Glad to hear your dd's travel team has had such good results. When your team learned the Epstein Hitting System did they have Epstein Certified instructors or did the Coach go off of his videos?
Just Curious,
Pops
The issue that I have with Epstein is that I have worked with several players from professional baseball that worked with him and he promised them they'd have more power and be better hitters and their batting averages dropped dramatically and their strike outs increases dramatically. He was also fired from every hitting coach position he ever had in professional baseball. I also look at a lot of video of elite hitters through many vehicles and his examples never match the examples of great hitters. His examples don't even match Ted Williams.
Pops,
I should have clairfied that better. Only my daughter has had the Epstein training. We took her to a Certified Instructor and went through the 7 day program. She has had good results and we have had several on her team inquire about her hitting style.
One thing I have noticed though, as Hit Dr. says in his post, her K's have increased. I am not sure if it is the better level of pitching she is facing or the method? Before learning the Epstein, she rarely struck out swinging and was very consistent about putting the ball in play. Now, her K's swinging come more often and not only when she faces better pitching. She hits the better pitchers as well as lesser ones. BUT, she does drive the ball with much more authority than before. So, I suppose you can approach it with a "take the good with the bad" outlook??
I will say that I have come to see this method as an "All of Nothing" hitting style, mainly because she doesn't seem to be able to adjust as easily to arriving pitches. Meaning she will kill pitcher mistakes! I may be way off base with that conclusion, but that is where i tend to lean after a season with it. I am definitely not a supporter of the "no stride" they use....seems to me she has trouble getting into a rhythmn when hitting, simply starting from a held position to swing. But she doesn't complain too much so I leave it alone.
That is why I was asking these guys for more elaboration on their conclusions of the system. I am one of those "average" parents trying to help his DD succeed. We live to far from her original instructor to just go back to him whenever she needs something tweaked or looked at, so most of what is corrected is simply by her and I working several times a week. I can see things, but just don't have all the understanding to teach her how to fix it sometimes.
Overall, I am pleased with it because she has had success, just that some of the things that have been brought up I can almost see, just can't put my finger on just what it is.
Thanks
I should have clairfied that better. Only my daughter has had the Epstein training. We took her to a Certified Instructor and went through the 7 day program. She has had good results and we have had several on her team inquire about her hitting style.
One thing I have noticed though, as Hit Dr. says in his post, her K's have increased. I am not sure if it is the better level of pitching she is facing or the method? Before learning the Epstein, she rarely struck out swinging and was very consistent about putting the ball in play. Now, her K's swinging come more often and not only when she faces better pitching. She hits the better pitchers as well as lesser ones. BUT, she does drive the ball with much more authority than before. So, I suppose you can approach it with a "take the good with the bad" outlook??
I will say that I have come to see this method as an "All of Nothing" hitting style, mainly because she doesn't seem to be able to adjust as easily to arriving pitches. Meaning she will kill pitcher mistakes! I may be way off base with that conclusion, but that is where i tend to lean after a season with it. I am definitely not a supporter of the "no stride" they use....seems to me she has trouble getting into a rhythmn when hitting, simply starting from a held position to swing. But she doesn't complain too much so I leave it alone.
That is why I was asking these guys for more elaboration on their conclusions of the system. I am one of those "average" parents trying to help his DD succeed. We live to far from her original instructor to just go back to him whenever she needs something tweaked or looked at, so most of what is corrected is simply by her and I working several times a week. I can see things, but just don't have all the understanding to teach her how to fix it sometimes.
Overall, I am pleased with it because she has had success, just that some of the things that have been brought up I can almost see, just can't put my finger on just what it is.
Thanks
- Jun 9, 2008
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David May,
Please know that I am not attacking what Epstein teaches, but but looking at the videos of his kids hitting, it looks like he teaches to get the weight back and rotate the hips. When you rotate your hips consciously it makes your weight go away from the ball (backwards) and you then pull off of the ball. It is pretty much impossible to drive the ball to all fields (especially cover the outside pitch) when your weight is going away from the ball. Also, it is impossible to get maximum power into the ball when your weight is going backwards and your back heal is "pivoting" back towards towards the catcher. If you want to look as a comparison at the dramatic difference of weight transfers look at these two websites:
Free Video Demo Downloads (click on Alex Rodriguez (#1) on the left
Welcome to Mike Epstein Hitting! (click on the swing clips)
Take a look at how different the swings are. I understand that kids are not going to be as fundamentally sound or mature as Alex Rodriguez... but the basic motions of the body need to be taught from a young age. Notice how A-Rods body weight stays center when he hits and Epsteins weight goes backwards and the examples just pivot on their back foot. There is not drive to the ball at all.
Please know that I am not attacking what Epstein teaches, but but looking at the videos of his kids hitting, it looks like he teaches to get the weight back and rotate the hips. When you rotate your hips consciously it makes your weight go away from the ball (backwards) and you then pull off of the ball. It is pretty much impossible to drive the ball to all fields (especially cover the outside pitch) when your weight is going away from the ball. Also, it is impossible to get maximum power into the ball when your weight is going backwards and your back heal is "pivoting" back towards towards the catcher. If you want to look as a comparison at the dramatic difference of weight transfers look at these two websites:
Free Video Demo Downloads (click on Alex Rodriguez (#1) on the left
Welcome to Mike Epstein Hitting! (click on the swing clips)
Take a look at how different the swings are. I understand that kids are not going to be as fundamentally sound or mature as Alex Rodriguez... but the basic motions of the body need to be taught from a young age. Notice how A-Rods body weight stays center when he hits and Epsteins weight goes backwards and the examples just pivot on their back foot. There is not drive to the ball at all.
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