In the beginning...9 and 10 y/o's

[lhowser]

what is the change-up pitcher doing that would be considered internal rotation vs. a pitcher taught the traditional method of being on top of the ball from 12 - 9 o'clock.

IMO nothing because she is not trying to whip the ball for speed. If throwing a "backhand change" both pitchers will have to turn their forarm early enough to allow for the backhand release. They'll have to learn when and how to get there through practice.

I recently mentioned IR to my DD's pitching coach and she was concerned that IR might put more strain on the shoulder than traditional methods, especially for new pitchers. Thoughts?

Based on everything I have seen I do not believe there is such a thing as a "traditional" method that has ever been used by top underhand fastpitch players whether male or female. The IR method is the way all of the good ones have thrown. The teaching that has taken place that involves -fingers behind the ball, pull down, snap the wrist hard at the hip and follow up in a muscle position was based on a series of assumtions and perpetuated by good meaning people who were trying to find a systematic method of teaching. The benefit of video analysis and the help of teachers like BM and Bill (on this board) help demonstrate the method is not correct for throwing underhand. It reminds me in hitting of "squash the bug, hit down on the ball and have arms extended at contact". A huge number of "hitting coaches" with experience and credentials perpetuated these ideas but we know they are not correct or what good hitters do. I do not believe IR places more strain on the shoulder than another method. When I am pitching practice my arm has less fatique than ever thanks to IR. When the instructor understands IR she will understand this by experiencing it for herself.
Now here is a cool challenge...If your pitching coach has pitched successfully in the past get video of her pitching a few balls at speed. I bet if she is good she is using IR. If she doesn't pitch get her best student on tape. If they are good I bet they are using IR whether they know it or not. If she does not pitch well or have a good student...get a new pitching coach.

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

IMO nothing because she is not trying to whip the ball for speed. If throwing a "backhand change" both pitchers will have to turn their forarm early enough to allow for the backhand release. They'll have to learn when and how to get there through practice.

Based on everything I have seen I do not believe there is such a thing as a "traditional" method that has ever been used by top underhand fastpitch players whether male or female. The IR method is the way all of the good ones have thrown. The teaching that has taken place that involves -fingers behind the ball, pull down, snap the wrist hard at the hip and follow up in a muscle position was based on a series of assumtions and perpetuated by good meaning people who were trying to find a systematic method of teaching. The benefit of video analysis and the help of teachers like BM and Bill (on this board) help demonstrate the method is not correct for throwing underhand. It reminds me in hitting of "squash the bug, hit down on the ball and have arms extended at contact". A huge number of "hitting coaches" with experience and credentials perpetuated these ideas but we know they are not correct or what good hitters do. I do not believe IR places more strain on the shoulder than another method. When I am pitching practice my arm has less fatique than ever thanks to IR. When the instructor understands IR she will understand this by experiencing it for herself.
Now here is a cool challenge...If your pitching coach has pitched successfully in the past get video of her pitching a few balls at speed. I bet if she is good she is using IR. If she doesn't pitch get her best student on tape. If they are good I bet they are using IR whether they know it or not. If she does not pitch well or have a good student...get a new pitching coach.

What I mean by "traditional" method is that (other than this forum) everyone I come in contact with that works with young pitchers all say the same thing when teaching the fastball: hand behind the ball before release, snap the wrist up at release, and finish with elbow pointed at catcher ("grab the candy bar on the shoulder", "touch the shoulder", etc). This cookie cutter approach seems to be pervasive in the my softball coaching community; maybe because it is relatively simple and easy to teach and for girls to have some pitching success, early on?

I agree with you that internal rotation is probably a better technique and seems to be used by most of the elite pitchers in the game. It would be interesting to see videotape of my PC pitching or her better students to see what they are actually doing vs. what they think they are doing or being taught. BTW, I have not come across any books or instruction manuals that teach IR mechanics. If one exists, please let us know.

 

[cshilt]

BTW, I have not come across any books or instruction manuals that teach IR mechanics. If one exists, please let us know.

Bill Hillhouse: Building the House
Bill Hillhouse: House of Pitching Softball Academy

Doug Gillis: Pitching Mechanics "Absolutes vs Style"
Doug Gillis Softball Academy

 

[SoCalSoftballdad]

Bill Hillhouse: Building the House
Bill Hillhouse: House of Pitching Softball Academy

Doug Gillis: Pitching Mechanics "Absolutes vs Style"
Doug Gillis Softball Academy

Thanks cshilt. I'll order Hillhouse's DVD since it has been mentioned favorably several times on this site and he is a frequent contributor. Regarding books, I have "The Windmill Pitcher" by Sammons/Fernandez, which isn't bad but seems to have a lot of old information and cites references back to the early 1990's. Maybe it doesn't exist, but would like to see a book that teaches IR and modern concepts on pitching mechanics?

 

[halskinner]

Thanks cshilt. I'll order Hillhouse's DVD since it has been mentioned favorably several times on this site and he is a frequent contributor. Regarding books, I have "The Windmill Pitcher" by Sammons/Fernandez, which isn't bad but seems to have a lot of old information and cites references back to the early 1990's. Maybe it doesn't exist, but would like to see a book that teaches IR and modern concepts on pitching mechanics?

Well, then I guess those grips for riseballs and dropballs I scanned and posted here must be considered archaic since they were from 1966. Good information is good information no matter when it comes to light.

As far as I can tell, this IR crud (used to simply be referred to as 'Bringing the fingers to the inside of the ball) has only been around a few months, since someone first came up with that name on this board.

No doubt there are 5 or 6 goomba's scrambling to try and come out with the first IR book or video as I type this. Buy into that or dont.

It is NOT a pitching style, it's not something new. If you contact a seasoned instructor and ask if they teach that, after you explain what it is, they will probably laugh at you.

Good luck with it.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Well, then I guess those grips for riseballs and dropballs I scanned and posted here must be considered archaic since they were from 1966. Good information is good information no matter when it comes to light.

As far as I can tell, this IR crud (used to simply be referred to as 'Bringing the fingers to the inside of the ball) has only been around a few months, since someone first came up with that name on this board.

No doubt there are 5 or 6 goomba's scrambling to try and come out with the first IR book or video as I type this. Buy into that or dont.

It is NOT a pitching style, it's not something new. If you contact a seasoned instructor and ask if they teach that, after you explain what it is, they will probably laugh at you.

Good luck with it.

I always question these 'new' styles? Some are just a new label on an old bottle. Just to make a quick buck to me. My father taught my brother and I to pitch old school. I guess I'll call it EXTREME ROTATION for my book. Haha.

I use the same principles that my dad taught us. Have an arsenal of pitches, work wrist and finger snaps, and when you step on that rubber........YOU CONTROL THE GAME. My brother beat me by a slim margin using old school pitching, he still holds the best career and season ERA ever ( 1982 ) in a city with a population of over a million. We both went on to pitch D1. I'll continue to take my chances with the 'old school' mentality when teaching my DD. And she's already better than both of us were at her age.

 

[lhowser]

As far as I can tell, this IR crud (used to simply be referred to as 'Bringing the fingers to the inside of the ball) has only been around a few months, since someone first came up with that name on this board.

No doubt there are 5 or 6 goomba's scrambling to try and come out with the first IR book or video as I type this. Buy into that or dont.

It is NOT a pitching style, it's not something new. If you contact a seasoned instructor and ask if they teach that, after you explain what it is, they will probably laugh at you.

Best I can tell following the discussions on this Forum no one ever claimed it was new. No one has claimed it was a style. In fact it came up in a discussion with Board Member and he said it was the way people have always thrown underhand but a lot of people as evidenced by SoCaldad's post are teaching something different. It is used as a way to describe the mechanic or movement of the arm for parents teaching their kids who didn't have an understanding of the movement of the arm. That is all. The term IR has been helpful to me and understanding what is meant by it has helped me identify problems with a number of young ladies. The reason it has taken off on this Forum is obviously a lot and I mean a lot of pitchers, pitching coaches and dads did not clearly understand what was going on with the arm movement sequence of successful pitchers. I've heard it in person and seen in all over online. There are a bunch of people teaching a method of pitching a softball that isn't successful. It is the style SoCaldad described and it is more common than not. Of course these instructors have not heard of internal rotation because it was to the best of my knowledge a way to describe the mechanic of pitching introduced on this forum. A number of modestly success pitchers who did well in high school and played college ball start teachingpitching and teach a ball release they themselves do not use. They apparentlydo not have the analytical interest or skills to identify what they are actually doing.

 

[BoardMember]

As far as I can tell, this IR crud (used to simply be referred to as 'Bringing the fingers to the inside of the ball) has only been around a few months, since someone first came up with that name on this board.

No doubt there are 5 or 6 goomba's scrambling to try and come out with the first IR book or video as I type this. Buy into that or dont.

It is NOT a pitching style, it's not something new. If you contact a seasoned instructor and ask if they teach that, after you explain what it is, they will probably laugh at you.

Good luck with it.

Hal......just an FYI........When I teach in person......I never mention "internal rotation"........I show them how to throw the ball.......Same as you........"Get inside the ball"......."Pull it down don't push it down"......."Throw this little football"........Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla.......

The fact that I've been able to explain to many many people here the bio-mechanical movement that creates the "whip release" that YOU USE doesn't make it crud........And the fact that so many people "get it" once they follow the method I've laid out doesn't make them "stupid". It proves a poiint......

I watched your clip of what you call the submarine pitch.......Hell.......I learned to throw a ball being limited to the arm going no further back then parallel to the ground from 46ft........They called it the "9:00 league"........Then, after a few years they allowed us to move the arm up to 12:00.......Which is your sub. pitch. I had to throw like that until they eventually allowed us to throw full windmill after a few years of this fastpitch deal.......

The mear fact that I had to create velocity from "9:00" was how I learned to throw the ball....or better yet whip the ball.......

I've been approached many times over the years to write a book or create a video tape (back then) teaching the method I use. No time or interest in that. I just liked to coach kids and take them to the next level......

I'm not offended that you feel I/R is "crud"......But it isn't.....And it's the BEST way to teach the "whip" through the written word.......Hell my dad refused to use a touch tone phone for 10 years after they came out.

There is NO substitute for a good pitching coach.........Who "knows what the hell they are doing".......Unfortunately.....They are fewer and fewer as time goes by.......

Best regards........

 

[lhowser]

Here is the latest video of my dd. She is 10 and will be 10U this summer. When you watch the first clip at the very beginning of this thread and compare her size in just a year it is ridiculous how quick she has grown. SoCalSoftballDad asked me to post an update so I shot some video this weekend at my older daughters high school scrimmage. My DD is wearing the latest in softball attire - A sparkly Christmas shirt and skinny jeans but you can see her motion. I have a few thoughts about it but I would like to hold them back and hear what others say. I would like to hear your thoughts. One request -with any recommendation please detail what the intended positive consequence would be of taking the suggestion and the negative consequence of not taking the action. That could help all of us learn. In a typical 7 inning game right now she can go the distance, throws somewhere in the mid 40's, will walk maybe 3 in a game and has pretty good plate control. That is where we are right now.
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[SoCalSoftballdad]

Here is the latest video of my dd. She is 10 and will be 10U this summer. When you watch the first clip at the very beginning of this thread and compare her size in just a year it is ridiculous how quick she has grown. SoCalSoftballDad asked me to post an update so I shot some video this weekend at my older daughters high school scrimmage. My DD is wearing the latest in softball attire - A sparkly Christmas shirt and skinny jeans but you can see her motion. I have a few thoughts about it but I would like to hold them back and hear what others say. I would like to hear your thoughts. One request -with any recommendation please detail what the intended positive consequence would be of taking the suggestion and the negative consequence of not taking the action. That could help all of us learn. In a typical 7 inning game right now she can go the distance, throws somewhere in the mid 40's, will walk maybe 3 in a game and has pretty good plate control. That is where we are right now.
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Great video and interesting to see the pitching progression in a year. She looks really good and has great mechanics for 10, especially the arm whip, follow-thru and balance with her pivot foot drag. A couple of observations I have:

- she could be even more aggressive with her push off and leap more "up and out" (but maybe that is a function of wearing jeans and not having a rubber to push off from? In practice and games she might be more aggresive;

- she leans a little forward at release, may want to practice drills that keep her chin behind her belly button;

- I am not a big fan of starting out with the glove over the head, just seems to be wasted movement, but many claim it is only stylistic (i,e, Cat Ostermann) and has no impact on pitching mechanics. I'm not 100% convinced of that.

With that said, nice work by her (and you). Couple of questions? What pitches does she use in the game and in what sequence or pitch counts? 3 walks in 7 innings is great. Is she getting lots of strikeouts, ground balls outs, etc.

Keep up the good work and happy holidays to you.