Bat Path

[Bonesaw]

That’s excellent, I think we’re making real progress here, because I believe you’re starting to see the distinction in terms that I was trying to make between the difference in what you were calling “hip extension” and doing in the exercise when you were attempting it, and what I was saying it was, and thus doing and trying to explain differently wrt the exercise.

To summarize, you were using “hip extension” to move yourself forward, while I was using “hip extension” to “open” the joint itself. This is a big difference in definitions, but also very necessary to understand why we view what’s happening in Freddie’s swing differently terminology wise…although I believe we’re both seeing/analyzing it the same which is excellent for the conversation.

In order to try to keep this as brief as possible, I’m gonna try to cut out as much of the minutia details as possible, and just propose my different definitions of what I’m calling what the rear leg does in moving the hitter from “linear to rotational” if you remember my several posts wrt that concept another buddy of mine came up with.

What you’re still calling the move out (stride) as “hip extension”, I’m saying that’s simply the hitter using “leg extension” (or "abduction" more correctly) to move himself forward…a lateral leg raise exercise only from a standing position if you will. This is a “linear” move of the rear leg moving the PG forward with little to no “rotational” value in it as of yet. Going one step further, what happens if/when the hitter puts some rearward coil “around” that forward moving leg with the PG? Would that linear rear “leg extension” (abduction) then actually have some rear “hip flexion” in it…or would you still just call that whole move forward “hip extension” as you did in the exercise, and are doing now?

Once the hitter moves out laterally to his “FYB” position, this is where I believe the actual “RHE” starts the “rotational” usage of the rear leg (ER) to launch the swing (yes, along with the contracting obliques for the others reading along).

When the femoral head reaches its full ROM within the acetabulum, is when you see that final little “thrust” or “umph” of the rear hip -slightly up and forward - when the rear leg and/or body don’t have any additional forward movement…as the hitter has already gone from the “linear" (leg extension/abduction) move to the "rotational" (hip extension) movement at this point in the swing....and two distinct differences in terminology (at least IMO anyway).

I have no idea what a “torso pulse” is, and as such won’t take up anymore of your time trying to reply to it one way or the other.

So that’s what I think wrt all of it. Similar, but definitely with some distinct (and important) differences as well IMO.

I feel like we are/were not looking at the same thing at all. Its not for a move out or forward. Not sure where you got that from. When I say hip extension I mean the definition of hip extension that everyone uses. Not some other movement misinterpeted as hip extension.

Watch this video. This is hip extension isolated about as much as you can isolate it as a movement on your feet.




Edit for Synopsis: she's using her hips to swing her torso to swing whatever is in her hands.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

WRT the bold...... The problem that I have with this is that it isn't very controllable it lacks stability and has poor direction.

WRT the Red....... The stretch is across the front of the body from the rear foot to the lead shoulder. There is also a stretch across the back from the lead foot up to the rear shoulder..... I do not understand the energy release question.

The force is being created within in the body the ground is merely an amplifier. Just look at the Jeter jump throw, it is all there if you really think about whats going on. Stop looking at it as JUST Fulcrums & Levers and include the Fascial System.

Fascia Lines are the intersections of the body - The Fascia Guide

The concept of Fascia Lines is a great way to understand how the body functions and how treatment can be optimized to increase mobility and functionality. The main principle is that muscles, no matter what they do individually, also affect tissues throughout the entire body.

fasciaguide.com

Bold---You might be misunderstanding or doing it wrong if you think it's uncontrollable. It's the movement of the elite swing. What direction do you think it's going?

Red---- With that stretch, what are you trying to accomplish? The rear leg kicking the ball? Rear foot stays back while front shoulder pulls the fascia forward....so how's that affect the bat? Stretch a rubber band from the back foot to the lead shoulder....when you release it, the rear foot moves toward the front shoulder?

Try this instead....stretch the top half clockwise as the bottom half moves counterclockwise. Then, at max stretch, have someone push your front hip more CCW.



As for Jeter....he stabs his left foot down so he can rotate his hips CCW as his shoulders turn CW....Stretch..... swings his right leg forward to rotate the hips more and then uncoils to throw. If he didn't stab the left foot, he couldn't make the throw. He torques the pelvis with the left leg to create rotation the same way a batter does.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

Down to, swinging down IMO is the most understood term on swinging a baseball bat. I don't mind the young mans video, as a matter of fact I've been following him for quite sometime. However just as misleading as when Pujois talks about down to in his video I find all these youtube experts equally as misleading. Every time they demo down to or swinging down they do so with no or poor sequence and posture. When I look at the Pujois video I see an expert showing you what he does with his hands.. isolating a movement. When I see Antonelli or Tewks demoing swinging down.. they do so with the intention of proving the big leaguer is wrong, or they are just talking about feel. They demo it as the path the actual barrel takes in a big league swing.. they stand flat footed with no sequence or posture and chop down.. and for that reason they are way out in left field IMO. I like Antonelli.. I think he's great, love his videos, a little long winded, but I am nitpicking. When we see Yelich demoing down to.. he's also isolating hands.. add in some key components, FYB, posture etc.. his hands does the samething, but now he's doing from a leverage position. Anyway, now I'm being long winded, point is some these hitting gurus are just as, even more misleading then the pros demoing down to.

What I like about the young fella here is he is not trying to prove anybody wrong, he's not talking about doing something funky with your hands, just talking about proper bat path, and even though I haven't watched the entire video, I agree.

Are you directionally challenged? Please stop saying "swing down to" it's freaking wrong. The kid in the vid is talking about actually swinging DOWN to the ball...no matter what the FYB or spine tilt is.

Swinging down to: the act of starting with the bat in a position above the ball and then moving it closer to the ball in a way that results in the bat getting closer to the earth as it approaches the ball.

Maybe you could make up a term that describes the arm/wrist motion you're so infatuated with in the context of a competitive swing....like "sideways chop"....or "chopping on pitch plane." or my favorite, "chopping broccoli."

 

[Bobby Shirer]

That's 3 questions, I'm charging for the extra one..

1. They are not wrong
2. Of course not.. and why do I need to?
3. Yes you should

IMO you are falling into the same trap.. Trout demos "down to". Is he in a FYB position with good posture while doing so? No. Does any of his body movements, legs, core etc look to same to you in his demo vs game swing? No. We have posters on here who tried to demo down to with a HL swing movement.. they couldn't do it. They ended up being AFAB, or 0 posture.. guess what happened when they added in the proper sequence and good posture with the same down to motion? HL swing, proper barrel path with the same hand action. My advice, because this was a game changer for me as well.. pick up a bat, learn good FYB and posture, copy what Trout is doing in his demo. What's the result? I am sorry, I am not saying you need my advice, but just in the context of this discussion

Please post a pic of good FYB posture.

 

[julray]

Please post a pic of good FYB posture.

R you kidding me Bobby, how many times has somebody provided you a pic of FYB. And I kind of tired of the one way, when are you going to start delivering .. every time I ask you for something you say no

 

[julray]

Are you directionally challenged? Please stop saying "swing down to" it's freaking wrong. The kid in the vid is talking about actually swinging DOWN to the ball...no matter what the FYB or spine tilt is.

Swinging down to: the act of starting with the bat in a position above the ball and then moving it closer to the ball in a way that results in the bat getting closer to the earth as it approaches the ball.

Maybe you could make up a term that describes the arm/wrist motion you're so infatuated with in the context of a competitive swing....like "sideways chop"....or "chopping on pitch plane." or my favorite, "chopping broccoli."

I sometimes get lost at the shopping mall.

Like I already said I don't mind what the kid is saying, he's not saying Pujois, Trout, Yelich etc is wrong. He saying you can't swing the bat in poor sequence with no posture.. it results in swinging down. That's why I say it's misleading, he's leaving out what causes a hitter to swing down.

If you are in good sequence with good posture... that changes the angle and the same hand movement demoed by Trout, Yelich etc no longer looks like what the kid is demoing.

I'm only infatuated with what the best in the game do.. no need for me to make anything up (tTB). They have been swinging like that for decades. And the hand action(we are talking about in isolation here) is natural.. used everyday by people swinging axes, hammers etc

 

[DRDRODD]

Bold---You might be misunderstanding or doing it wrong if you think it's uncontrollable. It's the movement of the elite swing. No, no misunderstanding
What direction do you think it's going? What direction is what going?

Red---- With that stretch, what are you trying to accomplish? It is the braking system.
The rear leg kicking the ball? No.
Rear foot stays back while front shoulder pulls the fascia forward....so how's that affect the bat? It doesn't, it affects the body.
Stretch a rubber band from the back foot to the lead shoulder....when you release it, the rear foot moves toward the front shoulder? It doesn't get released.

Try this instead....stretch the top half clockwise as the bottom half moves counterclockwise. Then, at max stretch, have someone push your front hip more CCW. Take a look at the GIF, as the guy releases the top half of the ruler all control is lost. The stored energy is sprung into action and there is no stopping it. Now imagine if he had rubber bands that connected to each side edge of the ruler that are pulling in opposite directions. He would be a able to control and harness that energy compared to just a "release". He would now have the potential to use that stored energy in a much more controllable fashion. The engine may be a single-speed motor but when you factor in how the braking system can work, it will act more like a variable-speed motor. IMO this is why what is used as the engine is the most crucial aspect of the swing with the "launch position" being a very close 2nd. The created tension also adds stability to the body and allows it to rotate on a much cleaner axis (the spine). Sure your theory works fine when hitting a ball sitting on a tee but lacks the adjust-ability when a moving ball comes into play.

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[Bobby Shirer]

I sometimes get lost at the shopping mall.

Like I already said I don't mind what the kid is saying, he's not saying Pujois, Trout, Yelich etc is wrong. He saying you can't swing the bat in poor sequence with no posture.. it results in swinging down. That's why I say it's misleading, he's leaving out what causes a hitter to swing down.

If you are in good sequence with good posture... that changes the angle and the same hand movement demoed by Trout, Yelich etc no longer looks like what the kid is demoing.

I'm only infatuated with what the best in the game do.. no need for me to make anything up (tTB). They have been swinging like that for decades. And the hand action(we are talking about in isolation here) is natural.. used everyday by people swinging axes, hammers etc

I didn't make up the application of force on the handle. I only identified it more exactly.
Don't just Turn the barrel, torque it.
Maybe it should be ttH....torque the Handle......
Yes that my new acronym!.....and I have you to thank for prompting me think it through!
So now, every time you see ttH, you know you had a part in it.

 

[Work=wins]

nice post DRD.

 

[julray]

I didn't make up the application of force on the handle. I only identified it more exactly.
Don't just Turn the barrel, torque it.
Maybe it should be ttH....torque the Handle......
Yes that my new acronym!.....and I have you to thank for prompting me think it through!
So now, every time you see ttH, you know you had a part in it.

Makes no difference to me, knock your socks off... great informative response btw