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Feb 25, 2020
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Yes, extension increasing the angle, flexion decreasing the angle.

If I can request, don't "look" at Freddie or anyone else doing it (especially a static still, when both extension and flexion describe dynamic movements)...stand up and put your flat hand on your rear leg/hip (along the inguinal line), and move your legs/hips in simulating what you'd do with them in a swing a couple times, and then put your hand on your lead leg/hip (along the inguinal line), and do the same thing.

When I do it, I do feel the rear joint angle increase (extension)...and when my hand is on my lead leg/hip line, I can feel my symphysis pubis bone move closer to my lead leg/hip, decreasing the angle of that lead joint (flexion).

Those two things can also be felt or described as "external rotation" of the rear leg, and "internal rotation" of the lead leg if their respective feet were off the ground..."open chained", instead of "closed chain" as they are now. Is that of any help, or confuse things more?

I'm not confused really.

If you go by the textbook definition, both hips are extending/extended. "Extension occurs in the sagittal plane about a frontal axis" that's from physio-pedia. I did your exercises and they reinforced whats in the textbooks. No surprise there.


And yes I appreciate the discussion Mud(very much). I think you are wrong about Freddies hip not being extended. However, I think you were correct in saying There is more extension in the rear than the front. Even in freddie. Which is due to the femurs not being lined up like the weightlifter.

Freddie has very good hip extension in both hips. Because his femurs are pretty close to "the ideal" position (weightlifter). There are other players who have less efficient hips(hi level players!). If you guys remember when Shawn posted Pete Incaviglia, his femurs were so far askew he ended up with a lot of flexion still in his front hip. That Florida player gif that was floating around also had terrible efficiency with her hips(not saying she wasn't a beast of a hitter, Because she was!).

Now if you look at bonds and rendon...how they cheat that back knee instead of peeling it. That move gets them closer to the femur together ideal position very early. It takes a lot of timing of the rear leg out, because its already there. They're ready to send the bat and extend hips.

That's my theory.

And I dont think that bonds move is good for anyone but a big, strong, mobile, mature, hitter. The peel is much better/easier/safer for most imo. Plenty of examples of the peel nothing wrong with it. Cabrera and Bustos come to mind (two of the best ever) and many more.
 
Apr 11, 2015
877
63
I'm not confused really.
Wasn't implying you were confused, just asking the question if I was saying too much confusing things...hence the reason for the question mark. I definitely respect your opinion and position, and how you respond here...you're at the very back of my list of those who might be pretty confused here. 🙂

If you go by the textbook definition, both hips are extending/extended. "Extension occurs in the sagittal plane about a frontal axis" that's from physio-pedia. I did your exercises and they reinforced whats in the textbooks. No surprise there.

You couldn't have done the exercise, or if you did you did so incorrectly...because it had absolutely nothing to do with the joints movement in space, and for whatever reason(s) you're trying to add unnecessary movement(s) into it, as soon as you start talking about any of the planes that you think they should have been traveling in.

The exercise was only to feel with your hand if the angle in each joint was increasing or decreasing...not traveling forward or backward in space somewhere.

I had written another long dissertation wrt the various planes and axes, and how it was/is unrelated to the discussion I thought we were having. But since I'm obviously not doing a good enough job describing it, and you've diverted to his hip(s) movement in space...I'll readjust, and just post a couple videos later, and leave it at that for discussion.

And yes I appreciate the discussion Mud(very much). I think you are wrong about Freddies hip not being extended. However, I think you were correct in saying There is more extension in the rear than the front. Even in freddie. Which is due to the femurs not being lined up like the weightlifter.
Good, I think we're half way there...stay tuned.

Freddie has very good hip extension ROM in both hips. Because his femurs are pretty close to "the ideal" position (weightlifter) [Huh, just above you said, "...the femurs not being lined up like the weightlifter"...so which is it?]. There are other players who have less efficient hips(hi level players!). If you guys remember when Shawn posted Pete Incaviglia, his femurs were so far askew he ended up with a lot of flexion still in his front hip. That Florida player gif that was floating around also had terrible efficiency with her hips(not saying she wasn't a beast of a hitter, Because she was!).

Now if you look at bonds and rendon...how they cheat that back knee instead of peeling it. That move gets them closer to the femur together ideal position very early. It takes a lot of timing of the rear leg out, because its already there. They're ready to send the bat and extend hips.
[Let's not get distracted here, we're still talking about Freddie at the moment, and we can apply what we finally decide about his movements to the others later.]
How 'bout we now get back to Freddie, and see if you're able to define the direction (and plane if you want) that Freddie's pelvic girdle/hips are moving in the swing in question. Let's go to the videos....

Looking at both hip, and the stripe(s) that run along the each side of his pants in both clips....
FNeeOVR.gif
xfAA2ww.gif

...do you really see both hips/stripes moving forward towards the camera in both views? Or as I'm seeing, is his rear (left) hip coming forward towards the camera (stripe starts to appear in the bottom clip angle)....and the lead (right) hip is moving away from the camera, as the stripe on that hip disappears backwards behind him in both views?

That's my theory.
Is it still the same seeing the movement of the hips alone or against the various planes you went to, and along with that then. If they are moving in opposite directions in relation to their place in space...how can they both have the same angle movement relationship within their respective joints?

And I dont think that bonds move is good for anyone but a big, strong, mobile, mature, hitter. The peel is much better/easier/safer for most imo. Plenty of examples of the peel nothing wrong with it. Cabrera and Bustos come to mind (two of the best ever) and many more.
As I suggested above, let's get Freddie figured out, and we can then compare that to other hitters to see if they meet our criteria of using the correctly, or if we need to go back to square one and start over with our analysis.

If you're still insisting that "both hips are extending/extended" towards both cameras (like we'd see with the weightlifter if the camera was in front of him at the same angles) even after watching them and their respective stripes on the pants...well then we're just gonna have to agree to disagree, and move on...as we just don't define "forwards", and "backwards" the same I'd have to say.

Good talk, catch up with you tmrw....
 
Nov 16, 2017
406
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no offense taken Bobby. But the legs in the swing are used for stability. So the pelvis can extend reactively in a small window. Something to leverage against. That’s the last bit of oomph that is needed. I am not saying her swing is perfect. But it’s pretty good power wise. Here’s another gif of her swing. Try to understand cross body contractions.

View attachment 18053

see the legs both snap forward? The hips are doing that against the legs. See how the back foot gets pulled back down? She doesn’t leak forward. Cross contractions which originate from the middle or reciprocal movement powers the swing. From rear shoulder to front hip, back to lead shoulder to back hip. The legs are for stability and the feet are the anchors.

Her swing looks powerful enough for me. I think what Bobby is referring to regarding the "look" of power has more to do with her stride length than using her legs more. If she were to stride an extra 6" then she would have more of the traditional looking power swing.
 
Nov 16, 2017
406
63
Sorry I went to bed right as you were jumping in.

Are you saying the front hip is not working toward extension (extending). Or front hip has a little flexion left after extending. You said "flexion happening". In regards to this pic.

View attachment 18056

Here's the whole swing. Since you don't like stills.



You do realize the camera angle here is basically the 5-6 hole. And, he is hitting a ball back side. I am not sure you are seeing what you think you are seeing.
 
May 12, 2016
4,338
113
Focussing on the Freeman swing.. do you all believe that he does not thrust his pelvis forward at contact?
 

TDS

Mar 11, 2010
2,926
113
I'm not confused really.

If you go by the textbook definition, both hips are extending/extended. "Extension occurs in the sagittal plane about a frontal axis" that's from physio-pedia. I did your exercises and they reinforced whats in the textbooks. No surprise there.

.

Correct !! Its why becoming leveraged fyb (both legs) is the goal with the core pattern.. The launch starts within the s-plane ("down to" ) Of course all planes of motion are used.

It's coincidental that some who don't think the swing down feel is real also don't believe both hips are extending.

zL3XQqs.gif


CDpwpTw.gif
 
Last edited:
Feb 25, 2020
953
93
Wasn't implying you were confused, just asking the question if I was saying too much confusing things...hence the reason for the question mark. I definitely respect your opinion and position, and how you respond here...you're at the very back of my list of those who might be pretty confused here. 🙂


You couldn't have done the exercise, or if you did you did so incorrectly...because it had absolutely nothing to do with the joints movement in space, and for whatever reason(s) you're trying to add unnecessary movement(s) into it, as soon as you start talking about any of the planes that you think they should have been traveling in.

The exercise was only to feel with your hand if the angle in each joint was increasing or decreasing...not traveling forward or backward in space somewhere.

I had written another long dissertation wrt the various planes and axes, and how it was/is unrelated to the discussion I thought we were having. But since I'm obviously not doing a good enough job describing it, and you've diverted to his hip(s) movement in space...I'll readjust, and just post a couple videos later, and leave it at that for discussion.

Good, I think we're half way there...stay tuned.

How 'bout we now get back to Freddie, and see if you're able to define the direction (and plane if you want) that Freddie's pelvic girdle/hips are moving in the swing in question. Let's go to the videos....

Looking at both hip, and the stripe(s) that run along the each side of his pants in both clips....
FNeeOVR.gif
xfAA2ww.gif

...do you really see both hips/stripes moving forward towards the camera in both views? Or as I'm seeing, is his rear (left) hip coming forward towards the camera (stripe starts to appear in the bottom clip angle)....and the lead (right) hip is moving away from the camera, as the stripe on that hip disappears backwards behind him in both views?


Is it still the same seeing the movement of the hips alone or against the various planes you went to, and along with that then. If they are moving in opposite directions in relation to their place in space...how can they both have the same angle movement relationship within their respective joints?

As I suggested above, let's get Freddie figured out, and we can then compare that to other hitters to see if they meet our criteria of using the correctly, or if we need to go back to square one and start over with our analysis.

If you're still insisting that "both hips are extending/extended" towards both cameras (like we'd see with the weightlifter if the camera was in front of him at the same angles) even after watching them and their respective stripes on the pants...well then we're just gonna have to agree to disagree, and move on...as we just don't define "forwards", and "backwards" the same I'd have to say.

Good talk, catch up with you tmrw....

Mud,

I will probably disappoint you here.

But,

The hip joint is straightening on both sides. You are complicating it by thinking about forward, backward, twisting. There is no direction. It's just the angle increasing of the femur and pelvis. Straightening of the joint. Extension of the joint. The ventral surfaces are getting farther apart. That is what extension is.
 
Apr 11, 2015
877
63
"Bones", the more I read (and reread) your replies, I think we're talking about two different "extensions", and thus two different movements (which is not always that uncommon in the medical world). Correct me if I'm wrong, but....

I believe you're speaking of the linear movement of the limbs/legs - to or away from the body - creating an "increasing" or "decreasing" distance between the two parts...when all along I've been talking about the rotational movement of the limb within the joint "increasing" or "decreasing" angles between the two part within the joint(s).

So when you're looking at what is often also called "leg extension", the leg moving away from the PG along a plane....I was looking at just the hip sockets themselves, and the rotation of the femoral head acting on or within the acetabulum turning the PG forward or rearward around an axis within the socket itself.

That's why when you did one thing in the "exercise", I was thinking/doing something completely different, and the reason for my post last night...
You couldn't have done the exercise, or if you did you did so incorrectly...because it had absolutely nothing to do with the joints movement in space, and for whatever reason(s) you're trying to add unnecessary movement(s) into it, as soon as you start talking about any of the planes that you think they should have been traveling in.

The exercise was only to feel with your hand if the angle in each joint was increasing or decreasing...not traveling forward or backward in space somewhere.

Are you starting to see where somewhere back, I think we seemed to head off on different tracks, that got further, and further apart as we traveled down them respectively. At least that's my take on were things started going awry, but you may have a completely different idea or interpretation, and that's fine as well. (y)
 
Apr 11, 2015
877
63
Mud,

I will probably disappoint you here.

But,

The hip joint is straightening on both sides. You are complicating it by thinking about forward, backward, twisting. There is no direction. It's just the angle increasing of the femur and pelvis. Straightening of the joint. Extension of the joint. The ventral surfaces are getting farther apart. That is what extension is.
So now that I hope we're at the same understanding of what (at least I believe) we were both thinking separately but together, I'd like your opinion on what you'd call the hip "thrust", I call it that added "umph" that we see on so many hitters. You mentioned Barry last night, and here's a clip that I hope you can see it....
OaeEzpU.gif

...in the one on the right. Where he gets out there with his leg extension(s), but then after he pauses to wait on the OS, you can see him "umph" or "thrust" his hip forward w/o gaining ground with his body. IWO's he didn't add additional leg extension, but he did push/thrust his hip forward somehow...how would you technically describe that final thrust/"umph" movement?

Jr. is another example...
zL3XQqs.gif

....gets out to the end of his leg extension(s), pauses, and then a "thrust" or "umph" to extend the rear hip up and ever so slightly forward, but w/o adding additional leg extension or forward body movement. How do you describe that movement of the hip, when the leg does not extend any further while it's happening?

I've been writing initials for it, but now I'm starting to believe they have a different meaning for same than they have for me. Curious as to your thoughts on that move(ment).
 

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