Bat Path

[DRDRODD]

You said the swing I described lacked control and direction.
You're wrong.
Don't need brakes. The swing only takes .15 seconds, once started, it's an explosive movement. Light the match.
The softball swing should involve a bat. All this body control for the sake of body control is a waste of effort.
I still don't understand the need to organize the fascia or how that might actually be accomplished. Is it the same as organizing and controlling the bones?
Muscles accomplish this quite nicely and I can train them and make them strong so my movements are controlled and directed. Ligaments and tendons become stronger with focused muscle growth too.
I like the dragster analogy, They work best when they're tuned correctly and all the driver does is mash the gas. The best cars use the brakes to stop the car at the end of the strip, not after the start or halfway down the track.

I must say Bobby your post disappoints me very much and not because you disagree with the theory. I am disappointed because you still don't have any clue how it works. I get it though, it took me a while also, after a friend first told me to look into the Fasical stuff. The light bulb didn't come on until he told me to look into Biotensegrity. The difference is that he wasn't spoon feeding me information, I had to find it myself. I have posted pretty much everything that I could have to help you see the light ex........ lab experiments, science backed research, a real life hitter that was swinging your way and swapped over, a superstar MLB player that found a simple "cheat" that put him much more inline with this model and had the best season of his career. Explained to you why the "High Level Pattern" swing is close but it ain't it, sorry. So you either haven't really looked at this with an open mind or you chose not to see it. Either way this will be my last post about it and I will go back into the cheap seats but wanted to give a little more advice since you still don't have a clue.

Don't need brakes. The swing only takes .15 seconds, once started, it's an explosive movement. Light the match.
The softball swing should involve a bat. All this body control for the sake of body control is a waste of effort. This is probably the most ridiculously false comment you have made on this forum.

I still don't understand the need to organize the fascia or how that might actually be accomplished. Is it the same as organizing and controlling the bones? Fascia cannot move itself but it can be moved. Which is the beauty of it, you don't try to do anything with it. All you have to do is move correctly and it does its thing all by itself . The issue is that people do not move correctly, so they can't leverage it. Stop trying to make it so complicated. It is "built in" and doesn't have to be added it's all ready there, it just gets coached out.


Muscles accomplish this quite nicely and I can train them and make them strong so my movements are controlled and directed. Ligaments and tendons become stronger with focused muscle growth too. Pick up a biomechanics book that isn't from the 70's. The book needs to be from the last 5-7 years at the oldest.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

The swing is more like Nascar short track series. There is a straightway and a turn. Do you go all engine into the turn and hope the steering gets the job done or do you think the brakes are involved as well to help navigate the turn?

Nascar? Not even close.
Apply the brakes?
Why? Afraid you'll let go of the bat in the turn?
Ridiculous!
You don't understand physics.
The turn is navigated by the constantly changing direction of the application of force. Not brakes.
Besides, application of the brakes while turning a race car changes the direction of the force on the tires. The associated change in COG and will unsettle the car and put you into the wall.
Also, I'm swinging around the corner at the start of my swing, from zero, so I'm swinging flat out all the way around the turn and reaching top speed as I exit the turn. No brakes.
Are you one of the crowd who believes the items in the car accelerate when the brakes are applied?

 

[Bobby Shirer]

I must say Bobby your post disappoints me very much and not because you disagree with the theory. I am disappointed because you still don't have any clue how it works. I get it though, it took me a while also, after a friend first told me to look into the Fasical stuff. The light bulb didn't come on until he told me to look into Biotensegrity. The difference is that he wasn't spoon feeding me information, I had to find it myself. I have posted pretty much everything that I could have to help you see the light ex........ lab experiments, science backed research, a real life hitter that was swinging your way and swapped over, a superstar MLB player that found a simple "cheat" that put him much more inline with this model and had the best season of his career. Explained to you why the "High Level Pattern" swing is close but it ain't it, sorry. So you either haven't really looked at this with an open mind or you chose not to see it. Either way this will be my last post about it and I will go back into the cheap seats but wanted to give a little more advice since you still don't have a clue.

Don't need brakes. The swing only takes .15 seconds, once started, it's an explosive movement. Light the match.
The softball swing should involve a bat. All this body control for the sake of body control is a waste of effort. This is probably the most ridiculously false comment you have made on this forum.

I still don't understand the need to organize the fascia or how that might actually be accomplished. Is it the same as organizing and controlling the bones? Fascia cannot move itself but it can be moved. Which is the beauty of it, you don't try to do anything with it. All you have to do is move correctly and it does its thing all by itself . The issue is that people do not move correctly, so they can't leverage it. Stop trying to make it so complicated. It is "built in" and doesn't have to be added it's all ready there, it just gets coached out.


Muscles accomplish this quite nicely and I can train them and make them strong so my movements are controlled and directed. Ligaments and tendons become stronger with focused muscle growth too. Pick up a biomechanics book that isn't from the 70's. The book needs to be from the last 5-7 years at the oldest.

Fascia cannot move itself but it can be moved. Which is the beauty of it, you don't try to do anything with it. All you have to do is move correctly and it does its thing all by itself.
Which is why I don't waste my time thinking about it.

 

[Buttermaker]

Nascar? Not even close.
Apply the brakes?
Why? Afraid you'll let go of the bat in the turn?
Ridiculous!
You don't understand physics.
The turn is navigated by the constantly changing direction of the application of force. Not brakes.
Besides, application of the brakes while turning a race car changes the direction of the force on the tires. The associated change in COG and will unsettle the car and put you into the wall.
Also, I'm swinging around the corner at the start of my swing, from zero, so I'm swinging flat out all the way around the turn and reaching top speed as I exit the turn. No brakes.
Are you one of the crowd who believes the items in the car accelerate when the brakes are applied?

From what I know of the HLP you should be swinging behind the corner and not around it, but whatever...maybe you are just mixed up. Or maybe you prefer to swing in a circle. That would explain why you need instant bat speed.

The items in the car are moving at a constant rate with the car. The car stops and the items continue on. They don't accelerate.

In terms of a swing, the reason you want to brake is to take advantage of the tension being built up. When you brake the tension is released.

 

[Bobby Shirer]

I made some hilights so we could narrow the disagreement focus....The following are from post by you/me.
First, you asked if your interpretation of my theory was correct...

"So you went through the slack removal process and you are in your hitting position/launch position (very important position) you are wound up so to speak lots of tension and your first reaction is to rotate the leg/hip to get things going, you need to use that tension to generate force right..... So it starts pulling on the torso or middle of the body, creating tension from left hip to right shoulder, dragging it along (very briefly). As the front leg starts to push back rotation is accelerated and the tension that was created between the upper and lower body can be compressed to accelerate even faster F=m*a???"

You asked if your interpretation was correct...
So I replied....

"change this word (compressed)to "contracted." Muscles don't compress, they get stretched and they contract.
And when they're briefly stretched, the muscles contract with more force. SSC.
And the torso is dragged along until contact. Sometimes longer."

As you can see, you mentioned "tension" 4 times, then "slack removal", "pulling" and "dragging" and I didn't disagree. The only thing I changed in your assessment was the use of the word "compressed."
I hilighted the words in blue and green. The green words mean the muscle, by contracting, is PULLING.

Then, without waiting for my answer you said....and I hilighted the words so you could note where we agree, where we strongly disagree.
Along the way you make the case against compression. Remember, I disagreed with your understanding that I think compression is used.


Most amateur swings are focused on compression (the concentric load). The issue with Concentric loading vs Eccentric loading is that Concentric loading isn’t nearly as efficient as Eccentric and not as stable either, not to forget that it produces less force overall also. Before I get ahead of myself I'm not saying that compression isn't involved but it is typically the main focus in the swing and IMO it should be the other way around. I can understand why though, you have removed all the slack and your body is wound up/tension-ed up it feels good to just compress it all together but again it isn't the most efficient or stable way. My beliefs are the following.

As the hitter gets into the hitting position/launch position part of the body is tension-ed up (The Fascial Lines). Notice how the front shoulder works down and in during the forward move (typically by striding). IMO that is reciprocal movement to counter the pelvis moving forward in a linear fashion. That movement allows tension to be created across the front of the body from the front hip to the rear shoulder and across their back from the left shoulder and back to the rear hip. The spine serves as the anchor point for this tension and the hands/arms can probably be considered an anchor point as well. So once this is complete the engine is ready to go.

During that movement some slack may have been developed across the front side, from the left shoulder to the rear hip (I find that the best hitters don’t have much if any). When the time comes to step on the gas. The middle starts to go/fire using the developed tension across the body leveraging the SSC that were established from the loading. As the compressing starts the slack, if any, is being removed across the body from the left shoulder down to the rear hip. As the engine keeps compressing, the tension across the body increases and starts pulling on the pelvis. The pelvis in return is pulling on the rear leg/foot. If the rear leg/foot are acting as anchors, which IMO they should be, the tension across the body continues to increase. This tension is the braking system in action. There is two ways to create this anchor 1.) holding the ground 2.) Scissoring……… This tension is what creates stability in the swing much like a Tensegrity model, compression and tension working in unison. At impact or just before impact you want it to be as tight as a guitar string and in return the body will be unbelievably stable like a brick wall. The braking allows for more force to actually be transferred into the bat and compressing the ball much better which is the goal. Think of it as a Force Couple maybe????? (I am not sure if I am understanding Force Couple correctly though and if it makes any sense here. I am hoping you or Patar may be able to help me out with my understanding of that).

The issue with firing the hips is that tension is never developed because it produces slack and not tension in the swing nor is it as controllable are nearly as efficient as it can be.

I will use the “HLP” for instance. I believe that theory is very close but the issue is the rear leg driver. It introduces slack into the system because of the way the rear leg is used. So the counter they came up with is????? You may have guessed it “Lateral Tilt”. The lateral tilt allows tension to be created in the upper body but at the cost of direction IMO.
Which is why you so many of their hitters head fly backwards IMO. They are trying to develop that tension but they have a lot of slack to remove first.

The spinal engine (moving from the middle) keeps direction in the middle of the field where it should be IMO.


Fire away with the questions LOL...... Just remember I am not a biomechanics expert just a dad trying to help my DD.

AS you can see. You've misunderstood my theory.
I've rarely mentioned the rear leg as a driver.
If I'm using the rotation of the pelvis to create tension, the rear leg anchor could only stop the creation of that tension. I want the pull and resulting tension to be applied to the bat. Not the rear leg.
Applying brakes to the rear leg would keep me from creating tension. It would restrict the pelvic rotation and the top half would catch up and create slack.
I remove slack pre-swing, then apply more tension via strong lower half rotational movement against a counter rotating top half. Nothing in my theory has anything to do with creating slack in the swing.

.....yet you disagree because of "Tensegrity?"
WTF?

 

[Bobby Shirer]

From what I know of the HLP you should be swinging behind the corner and not around it, but whatever...maybe you are just mixed up. Or maybe you prefer to swing in a circle. That would explain why you need instant bat speed.

The items in the car are moving at a constant rate with the car. The car stops and the items continue on. They don't accelerate.

In terms of a swing, the reason you want to brake is to take advantage of the tension being built up. When you brake the tension is released.

I don't know what HLP is.

Swing, by definition, is a turn/ circular movement. Unless you move linearly and then turn so you need brakes?

No such thing as "instant bat speed." I accelerate the bat as forcefully as possible from go to get the most bat speed in the least amount of time and space.

Car....check.

Brakes applied to what?
Have you ever shot a rubber band? What about shooting a rubber band in a moving car? Would applying the brakes make the rubber band accelerate more? The other shirt in the car only maintains its speed, no acceleration. SO how's braking going to add acceleration?
What if the front of the rubber band is attached to the decelerating car? Wouldn't that remove the tension so then the rubber band wouldn't fire as far because it's own inner tension is lost?

 

[Buttermaker]

I don't know what HLP is.

Swing, by definition, is a turn/ circular movement. Unless you move linearly and then turn so you need brakes?

No such thing as "instant bat speed." I accelerate the bat as forcefully as possible from go to get the most bat speed in the least amount of time and space.

Car....check.

Brakes applied to what?
Have you ever shot a rubber band? What about shooting a rubber band in a moving car? Would applying the brakes make the rubber band accelerate more? The other shirt in the car only maintains its speed, no acceleration. SO how's braking going to add acceleration?
What if the front of the rubber band is attached to the decelerating car? Wouldn't that remove the tension so then the rubber band wouldn't fire as far because it's own inner tension is lost?

Can you point me to where I said braking would add acceleration? Thanks.

 

[Shawn]

You guys got me thinking so I checked my data/metrics for hand speed. At contact and prior the hand speed was the same. There is no data after contact because Blast works off of contact for all the metrics. I’m going to check Correa’s metrics to see if they are showing hand speed in the video.

Be back

 

[Work=wins]

I don't know what HLP is.

Swing, by definition, is a turn/ circular movement. Unless you move linearly and then turn so you need brakes?

No such thing as "instant bat speed." I accelerate the bat as forcefully as possible from go to get the most bat speed in the least amount of time and space.

Car....check.

Brakes applied to what?
Have you ever shot a rubber band? What about shooting a rubber band in a moving car? Would applying the brakes make the rubber band accelerate more? The other shirt in the car only maintains its speed, no acceleration. SO how's braking going to add acceleration?
What if the front of the rubber band is attached to the decelerating car? Wouldn't that remove the tension so then the rubber band wouldn't fire as far because it's own inner tension is lost?

What if? What if? Stop changing the narrative. What you think is the swing is one big turn starting from the legs up and each piece gets to its EROM and pulls the next piece forward all the way up the chain. But like I’ve told you 1000 times that doesn’t match video. That’s the judge Bobby. Not you or me or anyone. Look at the video. LOOK.

Look at the hips. They don’t even get to 90 degrees on an up and in pitch?? Why is that? If he was rotating from the ground up, why is the pelvis closed at foot down and the torso goes before the back knee? Why does he not have a flat barrel path?




As far as the car crash is concerned, when the car crashes(hips) the things in the car (torso) speeds up. What your missing is the torso is ready for the crash(Concentric load) and is ready to use the energy from the car crash to catapult itself. The car analogy before was a good one, but once again you just try to poke holes. If you check into any Kvest stuff you would easily know this.

but like DRD said, you really don’t care to know. That’s okay for you, but what about the players you coach? Wouldn’t you want to at least investigate for yourself to make sure you are doing the best for your players?

Don’t respond if your gonna change the narrative again or not answer the questions I asked about the Altuve clip. It’s a waste of your time and mine.

 

[Shawn]

Nope, they don’t show Correa’s hand speed. I know my hand speed didn’t change at contact or before.