Turning the barrel 6

Mudders Brudder · Sep 17, 2018

mann said:
From 2014. Tijinxt, Does "LAUNCH" include the point of no return? In other words has the barrel been "launched" if you can still "check swing"?
Or if you are still able to "check the swing" perhaps the hitter is still in "prelaunch" or "barrel loading". Working the handle into position yet not launching.
The barrel must be directed before it is "Launched" otherwise the hitter would be "launching" at a predetermined location then trying to change planes. There may be slight adjustments made late in the swing to accommodate breaking pitches BUT the swing zone must already be determined pre-launch as to the put the hitter in the best possible position to make those late adjustments.
IE. Launching the barrel at a location such as hip high outer third every pitch, THEN trying to adjust to the actual pitch location such as inside low pitch is not what high level hitters do.

Old argument, still going on.

Maybe an "old argument" for some, but I think it's a pretty easy argument to answer in this analogy with a drag racer....

From the starting line of a drag strip, the driver/hitter stomps on the gas pedal when he reads "GO!" on the lights, and "launches" the car/barrel in the direction he's already chosen...and just like the "launched" dragster who suddenly finds himself headed in the slightly wrong direction, there maybe some ever so slight "steering" adjustments to stay straight on the track, or headed to the ball.

But what the dragster/hitter isn't doing...is just cruising off the line, steering the car down the track to some point, before he then stomps on the "launch" pedal. Not sure about you, but if I'm betting on a winner of the drag race, I'm betting on the guy who "launches" off the starting line at "GO!" (swing decision), and not the guy who cruises down the track some at "GO!", and then mashes the pedal. That may just be me though...YMMV.

EDIT: Wrt a "check swing"...just like the dragster who stomps on the gas pedal at "GO!", but then for whatever reason(s) decides to stomp on the brakes...his car may or may not stop before he wants it to, or hopes it will. Same thing with a hitter, and why so many "check swings" are called strikes when the hitter can't stop the already speeding barrel/car in time.

mann · Sep 17, 2018

Mudders Brudder said:
Maybe an "old argument" for some, but I think it's a pretty easy argument to answer in this analogy with a drag racer....

From the starting line of a drag strip, the driver/hitter stomps on the gas pedal when he reads "GO!" on the lights, and "launches" the car/barrel in the direction he's already chosen...and just like the "launched" dragster who suddenly finds himself headed in the slightly wrong direction, there maybe some ever so slight "steering" adjustments to stay straight on the track, or headed to the ball.

But what the dragster/hitter isn't doing...is just cruising off the line, steering the car down the track to some point, before he then stomps on the "launch" pedal. Not sure about you, but if I'm betting on a winner of the drag race, I'm betting on the guy who "launches" off the starting line at "GO!" (swing decision), and not the guy who cruises down the track some at "GO!", and then mashes the pedal. That may just be me though...YMMV.

EDIT: Wrt a "check swing"...just like the dragster who stomps on the gas pedal at "GO!", but then for whatever reason(s) decides to stomp on the brakes...his car may or may not stop before he wants it to, or hopes it will. Same thing with a hitter, and why so many "check swings" are called strikes when the hitter can't stop the already speeding barrel/car in time.

I like the analogy. Getting the bat up to speed. I like the running start. Drag cars, have none. But like the drag racer( which i am,was) i look at it more like the drag Boat racer, which has the running start, getting things going in a straight line until hitting full on. and if i was to race you, i would win in the boat. Back to hittin.

julray · Sep 17, 2018

mann said:
I like the analogy. Getting the bat up to speed. I like the running start. Drag cars, have none. But like the drag racer( which i am,was) i look at it more like the drag Boat racer, which has the running start, getting things going in a straight line until hitting full on. and if i was to race you, i would win in the boat. Back to hittin.

Because the finish line is stationary and in a predetermined spot. Head start is useless and detrimental when heading in the wrong direction. A pitched baseball/softball is not stationary

Work=wins · Sep 17, 2018

julray said:
Might want to elaborate on that because it can be easily misunderstood. Also do you agree with Latta's idea contact point? A lot of MLBer's idea point of contact is deeper where they say is a stronger position.. seems like Latta's idea point of contact is more out front of home plate.

Being direct as possible. Keeping the swing “under the shoulders” will help keep the hands in a more direct line to be efficient and as straight as possible . The swing should stay on the ‘right ‘ side of the body until contact on every pitch location.Thats also being as straight as possible . I think at the 2:00 mark he explains in more detail. Contact point to me shouldn’t be behind the front foot . Every pitch should be hit at or in front of the lead foot to achieve extension and backside release. The best way to maximize your power IMO. Hopefully I explained my view better.

https://youtu.be/PWN8hGZmRts

Mudders Brudder · Sep 17, 2018

Work=wins said:
https://youtu.be/nv6vCf0MzT8

Doug Latta explaining hand path and body movement. IMO this is the goal. Keep the swing as straight as possible. This is how I interpret FPs “right” and “left” side. I try to get my players swings to have efficient direction on the right side of their body.

Thanks for posting that, I've not seen that video before, or heard Doug teach...although I have heard some very good things wrt his instruction, and now I see why.

What I did see and interpret of what he was talking about:

1) "Golfing" the ball ("remember you're going to golf through it"), and when he said, "Let the right hand (top hand) do the work"...I see as his way of instructing to get the barrel "behind and through" the ball, or another way of having/showing the hitter how to "TTB".

2) At the 2:00 mark he demonstrates how the hitter is using his shoulder(s) and lead arm to pull the bat/knob through vs "golf"/TTB through from "under". Which I also find quite interesting and affirming, in that I use "under and through" vs "over and through" with some of my older hitters who still had a tendency to get too "down and to" the ball instead of "behind and through" it just to give them a different thought process in achieving the same goal.

3) At the 2:45 mark he's shows "thinking" with the barrel, and "When I think with the barrel, if I think with the barrel I try to get the barrel down...uhum...I just think/swing with my hands. I don't care what happens up here...hands". Again, to me that's just another reinforcement of TTB with the hands to get them "behind" the ball early.

4) 3:45 mark: "The hips are a little bit more secure, they're not spinning down, they're coming down, so they're going to hold you a little better". This is what I hear as him explaining how the player gets "SAT" into the swing, and not "spinning" as many developing players have a tendency to do with theirs.

5) He then goes into the vertical bat location wrt being able to "work underneath" vs a bat flat bat over the shoulder which then promotes a player "coming out" with the bat connected to the shoulder(s) in order to move it..."the more I work underneath the better".

6) From the 5:10 mark he demonstrates the hitter's "old swing" of what I call "down and to" the ball, and demonstrates getting the barrel as I say "behind" the ball, and he continues on the show and state the rest of the "through" part of the cue.

7) Following that he talks about "golfing" the pitch up in the zone, and still getting the barrel "underneath" and through the ball vs. this hitter who still wants to take/keep his hands "above" the ball as we've so often heard other talk about. For example, one can go back the the amateur hitter I posted yesterday, and see how even though the ball was up in the zone, he was still able to get the barrel coming "underneath" the rear shoulder, and not turning the shoulders initially in order to get the bat/barrel to the ball that way.

8) Now at the 8:50 part I have a bit of a disagreement with him wrt moving the body/head forward while tracking the ball (as the hitter moves forward reading the pitch, he's actually speeding up the pitch by decreasing the distance...two objects converging vs just one moving), and I'd rather a hitter learn to "move forward while back" (lower body move forward while upper body and head remain back)...he's essentially showing a "Shift THEN Swing" mechanic, that I believe we've already agreed doesn't happen in a HL swing . Moving the lower half out while the upper half stays back (FbC) does not lead to "spinning", and and doesn't move the head, but rather allows a longer read on the ball with a stable, non-moving head...that allows the lower body to eventually pull/power the turning barrel into the ball...but that's for another post/discussion.

9) Finally, at the 11:50 mark: "Did you get better...did you work as hard?" Which I think goes back to julray's comment wrt my hitter posted yesterday of "... this swing looks so effortless, quiet power", which I believe Doug is asking his hitter when it comes to the two different mechanics of an upper half, top down, hands to the ball, "over the top" swing, compared to that of one where the swing turns/golfs the ball from "behind" (first half of my term), and "through" as Doug says (and is the second part of the cue).

Just my interpretation of the video that I liked very much...even though I admit that I may have some interpretation bias when doing so, and that others might see, hear, and interpret it differently. If they do, I'd love to hear their breakdown in a similar manner, as I think it will help all when it comes to these various discussions of how to swing a bat.

My apologies in advance if this was to long, and rambling...I know I have a tendency to babble on more than I should.

Mudders Brudder · Sep 17, 2018

mann said:
I like the analogy. Getting the bat up to speed. I like the running start. Drag cars, have none. But like the drag racer( which i am,was) i look at it more like the drag Boat racer, which has the running start, getting things going in a straight line until hitting full on. and if i was to race you, i would win in the boat. Back to hittin.

Hey, we have more than hitting in common...I used to race boats back in the day, and I agree that your analogy of a drag boat start vs. a drag car start is a better analogy of an actual "running start", but as julray correctly states....

julray said:
Because the finish line is stationary and in a predetermined spot. Head start is useless and detrimental when heading in the wrong direction. A pitched baseball/softball is not stationary

...regardless of a running start or not, when the light says "GO!", you better already be heading in the right direction or you'll never cross the finish line at the "predetermined spot".

IOWs, if we both read "GO!" at the same time, and you're "pedaling" the car (hopefully you get the drag reference) down the track to "launch" again later once you figure out where you're going, while I'm not letting off the pedal at all while I'm racing down the track to my already "predetermined spot"...who's going to win 9 times outta 10?

Work=wins · Sep 17, 2018

Mudders Brudder said:
Thanks for posting that, I've not seen that video before, or heard Doug teach...although I have heard some very good things wrt his instruction, and now I see why.

What I did see and interpret of what he was talking about:

1) "Golfing" the ball ("remember you're going to golf through it"), and when he said, "Let the right hand (top hand) do the work"...I see as his way of instructing to get the barrel "behind and through" the ball, or another way of having/showing the hitter how to "TTB".

2) At the 2:00 mark he demonstrates how the hitter is using his shoulder(s) and lead arm to pull the bat/knob through vs "golf"/TTB through from "under". Which I also find quite interesting and affirming, in that I use "under and through" vs "over and through" with some of my older hitters who still had a tendency to get too "down and to" the ball instead of "behind and through" it just to give them a different thought process in achieving the same goal.

3) At the 2:45 mark he's shows "thinking" with the barrel, and "When I think with the barrel, if I think with the barrel I try to get the barrel down...uhum...I just think/swing with my hands. I don't care what happens up here...hands". Again, to me that's just another reinforcement of TTB with the hands to get them "behind" the ball early.

4) 3:45 mark: "The hips are a little bit more secure, they're not spinning down, they're coming down, so they're going to hold you a little better". This is what I hear as him explaining how the player gets "SAT" into the swing, and not "spinning" as many developing players have a tendency to do with theirs.

5) He then goes into the vertical bat location wrt being able to "work underneath" vs a bat flat bat over the shoulder which then promotes a player "coming out" with the bat connected to the shoulder(s) in order to move it..."the more I work underneath the better".

6) From the 5:10 mark he demonstrates the hitter's "old swing" of what I call "down and to" the ball, and demonstrates getting the barrel as I say "behind" the ball, and he continues on the show and state the rest of the "through" part of the cue.

7) Following that he talks about "golfing" the pitch up in the zone, and still getting the barrel "underneath" and through the ball vs. this hitter who still wants to take/keep his hands "above" the ball as we've so often heard other talk about. For example, one can go back the the amateur hitter I posted yesterday, and see how even though the ball was up in the zone, he was still able to get the barrel coming "underneath" the rear shoulder, and not turning the shoulders initially in order to get the bat/barrel to the ball that way.

8) Now at the 8:50 part I have a bit of a disagreement with him wrt moving the body/head forward while tracking the ball (as the hitter moves forward reading the pitch, he's actually speeding up the pitch by decreasing the distance...two objects converging vs just one moving), and I'd rather a hitter learn to "move forward while back" (lower body move forward while upper body and head remain back)...he's essentially showing a "Shift THEN Swing" mechanic, that I believe we've already agreed doesn't happen in a HL swing . Moving the lower half out while the upper half stays back (FbC) does not lead to "spinning", and and doesn't move the head, but rather allows a longer read on the ball with a stable, non-moving head...that allows the lower body to eventually pull/power the turning barrel into the ball...but that's for another post/discussion.

9) Finally, at the 11:50 mark: "Did you get better...did you work as hard?" Which I think goes back to julray's comment wrt my hitter posted yesterday of "... this swing looks so effortless, quiet power", which I believe Doug is asking his hitter when it comes to the two different mechanics of an upper half, top down, hands to the ball, "over the top" swing, compared to that of one where the swing turns/golfs the ball from "behind" (first half of my term), and "through" as Doug says (and is the second part of the cue).

Just my interpretation of the video that I liked very much...even though I admit that I may have some interpretation bias when doing so, and that others might see, hear, and interpret it differently. If they do, I'd love to hear their breakdown in a similar manner, as I think it will help all when it comes to these various discussions of how to swing a bat.

My apologies in advance if this was to long, and rambling...I know I have a tendency to babble on more than I should.

Thank you for the response. Latta has a lot of good info. His turn the barrel is ‘natural’ as it should be . His sequence is similar to the internet hitting world. Minus a hip coil there or separation here

. There is a really good podcast out on Twitter with Latta and his disciples. I think it’s under the handle ‘ahead of the curve’. Almost 2 hrs of hitting content. Nice listen. Take a listen anyone/everyone. Good stuff. I have always believed that the swing should be straight and direct. Knob to the ball makes sense to me. Swinging in straight lines makes sense to me. So Lattas’ stuff makes sense to me.

Since you don’t believe in a forward move with the head how does the body get forward in your teachings ?wouldnt the player be out of balance if they try to keep their head back ? On the backside to much? I like a good forward by coil move . It encourages a good back side release and an opportunity to achieve better balance dynamically. Jmo

julray · Sep 17, 2018

Mudders Brudder said:
8) Now at the 8:50 part I have a bit of a disagreement with him wrt moving the body/head forward while tracking the ball (as the hitter moves forward reading the pitch, he's actually speeding up the pitch by decreasing the distance...two objects converging vs just one moving), and I'd rather a hitter learn to "move forward while back" (lower body move forward while upper body and head remain back)...he's essentially showing a "Shift THEN Swing" mechanic, that I believe we've already agreed doesn't happen in a HL swing . Moving the lower half out while the upper half stays back (FbC) does not lead to "spinning", and and doesn't move the head, but rather allows a longer read on the ball with a stable, non-moving head...that allows the lower body to eventually pull/power the turning barrel into the ball...but that's for another post/discussion.

(

Sorry Mudders, I didn't mean to cut out all the content you wrote here, just wanted to shorten my post up. So if you look at the Justin Stone "one drill fixes all", or an example of Donaldson, Miggy, Bautista, Trout etc, they move their upper body forward (including head

) prior to heal plant. Maybe I am misunderstanding your here.

Mudders Brudder · Sep 17, 2018

Work=wins said:
I have always believed that the swing should be straight and direct. Knob to the ball makes sense to me. Swinging in straight lines makes sense to me. So Lattas’ stuff makes sense to me.

Maybe the "interpretation bias" thing is at work here for the two of us, but I don't know/understand how "Knob to the ball makes sense to me", and so does "Lattas’ stuff makes sense to me"...when to me, Doug was talking specifically (IMO) about not pulling/taking the knob/hands forward with the shoulder(s) and/or lead arm.

To add to the "straight and direct" comment, I like what HYP used to say, in that the swing was "rotational then linear" in describing it, and either he or someone else took that, and equated it to the Nike Swoosh....

...in that a hitter needs that "rotational" (dare I say "rearward"?) barrel movement early, in order to get the bat/barrel "behind" the ball to complete the "linear"/"straight" portion of the swing "through" it.

So when I hear "straight and direct", I equate that from point A to point B, and if using the Trout pic above, that would in that case show a "straight" smoke stream from the very top of the Swoosh, over the top of his rear shoulder as it continues "down and to" the ball...

(Please excuse the sloppy graphics, the software doesn't have a straight line tool

)

Since there's more than one post/reply wrt to the second part or question of your post, and head movement, I'll address them together following this post.

FP26 · Sep 17, 2018

Mudders Brudder said:
To add to the "straight and direct" comment, I like what HYP used to say, in that the swing was "rotational then linear" in describing it, and either he or someone else took that, and equated it to the Nike Swoosh....

...in that a hitter needs that "rotational" (dare I say "rearward"?) barrel movement early, in order to get the bat/barrel "behind" the ball to complete the "linear"/"straight" portion of the swing "through" it.

I wish I had joined these forums earlier. HYP seems like someone I would like to discuss hitting with. I have enjoyed reading some of the older posts.

"Behind and through" is something I use quite regularly, as I think it provides a very good description of barrel path. As illustrated by the Nike swoosh.

"Straight and direct" IMO is more about hand path. The gif below demonstrates a "straight and direct" hand path, IMO.

Turning the barrel 6

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