Turning the barrel 6

[4 girl's dad]

I think ‘released’ is a better description. If your resisting. All you can do is release correct?

I use the hands as a trigger as well. ‘Pig in the tornado’ is a game changer IMO.

I guess I’m dense because I dont get “pig in a tornado”.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

As respectfully possible....
Have you used the Hanson principle against your hitters? That’s the real judge for me. No matter what anyone says. I always check to make sure I am doing right by my hitters. Reason why I ask is , I don’t recall any pro or pro coach use the back hip for ‘direction’ or saying hand path is a no teach. I mean unless you don’t care for the mlb pattern.

No disrespect felt, and as respectfully in reply as possible as well...

Have you not seen the hitters I've posted here, and elsewhere multiple times in the past? I'd also be interested in seeing one or some of your hitters in the "mlb pattern" if you say that's what you use, and teach your hitters to get accomplish. I don't see too many amateur hitters in the "mlb pattern", and if you can't provide one of yours also applying the "Hansen Principle", does that mean you don't teach it, or care for the "mlb patten" as well?

I can understand why you don’t like knob to the ball. Your hitter a few pages back has a false weight transfer/separation. IOW he doesn’t have a forward move to actually separate, so knob to the ball would be tough from the backside. Your hitter has a coil in place mechanic . Hence the no extension(chicken wing, left side, over the top swing , shoulder driven )and no release of the backside(squish the big)type swing. You said you don’t teach a release as well. Your hitter doesn’t release anything(Probably should reconsider that).Power killers imo. If your hitters lunge check out Donny’s presentation. He has a full proof way to not lunge . Worked for me. His whole presentation is quite good and applicable . Lotta said the same thing by the way ‘ you have to get forward ‘. Tewks is a big advocate of a forward move as well. He actually based his whole first book around it , if I’m not mistaken. Thats 2 actual mlb hitting gurus who preach a forward move , not a 70/30 or 60/40 stay back mechanic. Staying back is actually at gather imo. As you move out , you resist with the backside until it’s time to go. That’s the mlb pattern. This is why you won’t see the backside ‘ release ‘ until go( the tell is the back knee). It won’t go down and in until GO. The only way to do that while moving forward yet staying ‘back’? Stretch forward with the backside in control (coil)to control the weight. Release from the backside . Of course there is a timing element to that. Hence , why hitting is so hard and why great pitchers are the ones that can change speeds and hit spots, and the hard throwers are 1 inning guys.

Holy moley, a lot said there, and rather jumbled together, but let me see if I can unpack that a little bit, and try to answer a few of the things you say/write.

I can understand why you don’t like knob to the ball. Your hitter a few pages back has a false weight transfer/separation. IOW he doesn’t have a forward move to actually separate, so knob to the ball would be tough from the backside. Your hitter has a coil in place mechanic.

1) That was his first game of actual use after just two lessons over three weeks since he lived 50+ miles from me.
2) What you do look for as "weight transfer/separation", and when in the swing? I look at upper half vs. lower half...not the hands "separating" from the front foot. He has that somewhat in whatever "style" he's trying to figure out from his old "H/K to to ball" mechanics to "TTB" instead.
3) What was the pitch, what did he read, and when? IOWs, I find it a bit odd to take one swing, and assume that's the optimum of the instruction the hitter was given. That is similar to the Joe Thurston swing I posted yesterday as an example of something I was attempting to show, and not that I believe that that is Joe's normal swing...but as someone else pointed out, that he probably got fooled on the pitch, did the best he could last second, and ended up an "example" clip of what not to do for eternity.
4) So yes, that wasn't what I'd call the best coiling/loading/separating/stretching mechanics from one of my hitters (or anyone else's for that matter), but that's not why I posted it...but rather to show how a hitter can TTB from behind on a pitch up zone, w/o having to move the hands towards, or to it first.

Hence the no extension(chicken wing, left side, over the top swing , shoulder driven )and no release of the backside(squish the big)type swing. You said you don’t teach a release as well. Your hitter doesn’t release anything(Probably should reconsider that).Power killers imo.

1) I have no idea of what you're talking about, that swing had 3 frames of extension (which just another term for "release" for me) prior to follow-through! What do you call or see as "extension" and/or "release?
2) Yes, he didn't get off his backside well I'll give you that, but that IMO was more from his late start to the pitch, and then having it run in on him that he wasn't expecting (watch F2's glove), than from the actual swing instruction he was given. However, quite honestly...I was pretty surprised to see him square up that ball as well as he did, because I've seen more good hitters beat on similar pitches like that, than I see them getting to, and with the result he got from it (hit the top of the LF fence according to his dad who sent me the vid all thrilled and excited after two lessons).

If your hitters lunge check out Donny’s presentation. He has a full proof way to not lunge . Worked for me. His whole presentation is quite good and applicable . Lotta said the same thing by the way ‘ you have to get forward ‘. Tewks is a big advocate of a forward move as well. He actually based his whole first book around it , if I’m not mistaken. Thats 2 actual mlb hitting gurus who preach a forward move , not a 70/30 or 60/40 stay back mechanic.

Why would you assume my hitters lunge?

As far as who teaches what, I'll stick with last year's WS team's hitting coach and his 60/40 description, and raise you one Ted Williams who teaches/writes about striding "balanced", but also states that, "You have cocked [your hips] and made your stride---but you have not moved your head more than that little bit required to keep proper balance" (italics by Ted to make a point, not me). IMO, and from everyone I've seen demonstrate striding to 50/50, their head moves excessively forward in/with that process, and not what Ted would approve of.

Staying back is actually at gather imo. As you move out , you resist with the backside until it’s time to go. That’s the mlb pattern. This is why you won’t see the backside ‘ release ‘ until go( the tell is the back knee). It won’t go down and in until GO. The only way to do that while moving forward yet staying ‘back’? Stretch forward with the backside in control (coil)to control the weight. Release from the backside . Of course there is a timing element to that. Hence , why hitting is so hard and why great pitchers are the ones that can change speeds and hit spots, and the hard throwers are 1 inning guys.

So with this, I'm not sure which actual weight transfer you truly believe in...

I say that, because first you say you have to get forward, and support Latta who stated very clearly in the video that you don't turn the hips (coil), and then here you say "As you move out , you resist with the backside until it’s time to go". So how do you "resist with the backside" w/o turning ("cocking" per Williams) the hips rearward as Latta says as he strides out to 50/50 (with all the head movement)?

You then go on to say, "This is why you won’t see the backside ‘ release ‘ until go( the tell is the back knee)", which with that, I'm going to assume that you believe that "backside release" is a rear hip (or hips) move, and if that's the case, what "timing element" are you referring to wrt that?

If you meant that "This is why you won’t see the backside ‘ release ‘ until go" is that timing element...then you just described "hit the ball with your rear hip". Get it? It's simply another way of saying, don't fire the "backside ‘ release ‘ until go", as a timing element of "launching" the swing in the "mlb pattern".

Please don’t take my critiques personal.

Respectfully,
Work=Wins

None of the critiques were taken personal (although I'm sure it read like I did in explaining some of them ), and I appreciate the discussion. I hope that we can continue on with it further as we discuss some of the similarities, differences, and even terminology definition variances that often as the main cause of those differences.

Respectfully, and appreciatively,
MB

 

[Mudders Brudder]

I think ‘released’ is a better description. If your resisting. All you can do is release correct?

I use the hands as a trigger as well. ‘Pig in the tornado’ is a game changer IMO.

IMHO, release is passive, and/or used to describe something that has potential or stored energy that required to additional energy to move the object once "released" (a rubber band or bow), and why I don't particularly like the word when it comes to using it wrt hitting, as the hitter must apply additional energy, power, movements in the "launch" (instead of "release") of the swing.

But that said, I don't make a big deal of it either when someone else uses it, because again...it just one of those terminology differences that's not worth distorting the whole conversation over.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

I guess I’m dense because I dont get “pig in a tornado”.

Don't feel bad, I was around when BM came out with it years ago, and after questions after questions...I still never got it either.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

'top down, bottom up' is another one of those forum quotes that get's thrown around. My personal opinion is the hands are the 'trigger' in the overall sequence. I do agree with your differentiation between 'lead' and 'fire first'. Another question that has been discussed at length is if the hips actual 'fire' or are they 'fired'?

When your DD is "pitching with her rear hip", does she "fire" it at the target, or is it "fired" by something else?

Sometimes cues get confused with kinesiology...if that's another way of saying it. =)

 

[rdbass]

I guess I’m dense because I dont get “pig in a tornado”.

The point is.......By "Loading it into"......You ARE MOVING the barrel WITHOUT "turning it forward first"........OR DUMPING IT UNDER........

You are "LOADING IT INTO" the running start.........IE "Dropping the pig into the tornado late".........When you do this......Load it into the running start......Your hands stay put.........BECAUSE of what they are doing........

See kid below........

On the top he turns it up late...."Turning it into the running start".......On the bottom he turns it up first........."Loading it into the running start"..........

|[/url]

 

[julray]

What's the story (sorry had to), is he TTB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5jyJZsutT8

Lots of good shots and angles in this video

 

[Work=wins]

No disrespect felt, and as respectfully in reply as possible as well...

Have you not seen the hitters I've posted here, and elsewhere multiple times in the past? I'd also be interested in seeing one or some of your hitters in the "mlb pattern" if you say that's what you use, and teach your hitters to get accomplish. I don't see too many amateur hitters in the "mlb pattern", and if you can't provide one of yours also applying the "Hansen Principle", does that mean you don't teach it, or care for the "mlb patten" as well?

Holy moley, a lot said there, and rather jumbled together, but let me see if I can unpack that a little bit, and try to answer a few of the things you say/write.


1) That was his first game of actual use after just two lessons over three weeks since he lived 50+ miles from me.
2) What you do look for as "weight transfer/separation", and when in the swing? I look at upper half vs. lower half...not the hands "separating" from the front foot. He has that somewhat in whatever "style" he's trying to figure out from his old "H/K to to ball" mechanics to "TTB" instead.
3) What was the pitch, what did he read, and when? IOWs, I find it a bit odd to take one swing, and assume that's the optimum of the instruction the hitter was given. That is similar to the Joe Thurston swing I posted yesterday as an example of something I was attempting to show, and not that I believe that that is Joe's normal swing...but as someone else pointed out, that he probably got fooled on the pitch, did the best he could last second, and ended up an "example" clip of what not to do for eternity.
4) So yes, that wasn't what I'd call the best coiling/loading/separating/stretching mechanics from one of my hitters (or anyone else's for that matter), but that's not why I posted it...but rather to show how a hitter can TTB from behind on a pitch up zone, w/o having to move the hands towards, or to it first.


1) I have no idea of what you're talking about, that swing had 3 frames of extension (which just another term for "release" for me) prior to follow-through! What do you call or see as "extension" and/or "release?
2) Yes, he didn't get off his backside well I'll give you that, but that IMO was more from his late start to the pitch, and then having it run in on him that he wasn't expecting (watch F2's glove), than from the actual swing instruction he was given. However, quite honestly...I was pretty surprised to see him square up that ball as well as he did, because I've seen more good hitters beat on similar pitches like that, than I see them getting to, and with the result he got from it (hit the top of the LF fence according to his dad who sent me the vid all thrilled and excited after two lessons).

Why would you assume my hitters lunge?

As far as who teaches what, I'll stick with last year's WS team's hitting coach and his 60/40 description, and raise you one Ted Williams who teaches/writes about striding "balanced", but also states that, "You have cocked [your hips] and made your stride---but you have not moved your head more than that little bit required to keep proper balance" (italics by Ted to make a point, not me). IMO, and from everyone I've seen demonstrate striding to 50/50, their head moves excessively forward in/with that process, and not what Ted would approve of.

So with this, I'm not sure which actual weight transfer you truly believe in...

I say that, because first you say you have to get forward, and support Latta who stated very clearly in the video that you don't turn the hips (coil), and then here you say "As you move out , you resist with the backside until it’s time to go". So how do you "resist with the backside" w/o turning ("cocking" per Williams) the hips rearward as Latta says as he strides out to 50/50 (with all the head movement)?

You then go on to say, "This is why you won’t see the backside ‘ release ‘ until go( the tell is the back knee)", which with that, I'm going to assume that you believe that "backside release" is a rear hip (or hips) move, and if that's the case, what "timing element" are you referring to wrt that?

If you meant that "This is why you won’t see the backside ‘ release ‘ until go" is that timing element...then you just described "hit the ball with your rear hip". Get it? It's simply another way of saying, don't fire the "backside ‘ release ‘ until go", as a timing element of "launching" the swing in the "mlb pattern".


None of the critiques were taken personal (although I'm sure it read like I did in explaining some of them ), and I appreciate the discussion. I hope that we can continue on with it further as we discuss some of the similarities, differences, and even terminology definition variances that often as the main cause of those differences.

Respectfully, and appreciatively,
MB

Thank you for the response.

The goal for me is to match what the BEST do.


Weight ‘transfer’to me is the moving out of the weight forward. ‘Shift’ to me is front hip going back, back hip going ‘forward’.

‘Separation’ is the ‘walking away from the hands’ or ‘backside’(Same in my book).

‘Good extension’ is the arms extending towards the pitched ball AT contact or RIGHT before contact.

Latta teaches to ‘stay through’ to get extension, as do I . It’s the best way to ‘hit in a big zone’ as the pros say. Your hitter turns left , cuts off his swing , loses power(release) and the ability to ‘hit in a big zone’. You say he ‘adjusted’. I say when you reach barrel type instruction , extension will be void in the swing( unless you cast). I tried with the Latta vids . But you didn’t get the hint.

The term ‘square up’ is due to hitting the ball at a 90 degree angle. So no your hitter didn’t square the ball. He lost his angle because of no hand path. He was around the ball. Due to a barrel centric teaching imo. That ball shoulda been 40 ft. over the fence imo( decent size kid ). But your hitter can’t get full release is his swing on top or on the bottom due to ‘70/30’ or 60/40 and uneducated hands( no hand path ).

When you are so concerned with ‘staying back’ that tells me your concerned with lunging(good guess no?). Ted said your head moves ‘a little’. Your hitters head doesn’t move at all. But really the case should be made for the tons of pro gifs we see all over these forums. 95-99% have a substantial forward move . Hank Aaron the true HR king IMO, had a massive forward move( that’s the power source, the main one anyway). More importantly , he was clean and and didn’t look like a bobblehead( sorry Barry).

Your gonna go with a colleg coach? Instead of a gaxillion gifs and 2 mlb hitting consultants( Latta, Tewks)??? Because it fits your model? Might want to rethink that one.

As far as ‘hit the ball with your back hip’. Your description was one of ‘direction’ instead of a hand path. Not of timing . I do believe the release of the whole backside is ‘GO’. Shift then swing is nothing more then no resistance with the backside .’ The swing is in the shift ‘ is my preferred description.

Good exchange MB. Thank you.

Here’s my kid hitting same location as your student. Mind you a BP swing. But at game speed and situation meaning she doesn’t know where the pitch will be . Hit about 230 ft . She’s only 130 lbs. Mind you not perfect. But the fundamentals are solid imo.

https://youtu.be/m-d2jXou2as

Here’s miggy for comparison . Same location.

https://youtu.be/t2t9KqZj8CM

Here’s a student of mine after 2 lessons. Just front toss. But notice the hand path , the extension , the release. No that’s not me.

https://youtu.be/lc9Mses-Hq0

Respectfully ,
Work

Ps. If there are typos etc. sorry. Longest post I’ve ever written . Feel like I’m in school. Lol

 

[julray]

Hey Shawn, is this kid bopping the catcher in the head?

 

[rdbass]

Hey Shawn, is this kid bopping the catcher in the head?

Let's clear something up.
Miggy would hit/'bop' the catcher in the side of the head:

Comforto would 'bop' the catcher in the side of the head:

Manny would also: