radial deviation

[Hitter]

Took me a while to get to the end of this one. The content of this is in a word exceptional. There is a lot of value in this thread.

Some great observations by everyone. I am sorry I was late to the dance.

Dana

Dana

When we were in OKC did I have the helicopter bat with me or did you see it when you came to the house?

This is where we get the feel for the hand path in slow motion with resistance from behind and you can actually see the hands and barrel moving as we come to contact. Maybe I can get Dan to video it.

Howard

 

[ifubuildit]

Howard,

You were kind enough to give me one of them while I was visiting your place. I use it all the time when talking about hand path. Its also a good work out tool.

Dana.

 

[Hitter]

Howard,

You were kind enough to give me one of them while I was visiting your place. I use it all the time when talking about hand path. Its also a good work out tool.

Dana.

Dana if you choose to, video it and explain how you think it works so someone can shoot holes through it or about it like Swiss cheese. I think it breaks the feel of what I call transitioning of the bat to contact visual and with feeling it in the wrist and the arms...your call!

Did you try the grip we discussed yet?

Howard

 

[Wellphyt]

I chose this clip primarily because of the very good vertical and horizontal reference points so actions and their effect can be measured. This is from the comparison clip posted earlier in this thread and represents frames 9-14. Any alternate view points would also be greatly appreciated. If possible it would be helpful if all would refrain from referencing any specific hitting/throwing/golf philosophies while describing what is occurring in this sequence.

The importance of this sequence is how Pujols is using his hands. He is turning his hands over, which gets the bat head moving early (backwards, not towards the ball). As his hands are busy at his armpit getting the bat started, the hips have triggered and are leading the way. When you use the hands to get the bat started like Pujols, you shouldn't have to even think about what the hips are doing. The hips lead naturally. The separation happens naturally. It's almost a no brainer.

IMO, the one big none technical thing to take away from these clips is this...

Check out Pujols' back elbow. His back elbow has dropped down into the slot position, while his hands remain back at his back armpit. Very few coaches and instructors teach this move correctly in FP. The move that is commonly taught in FP results in the hands moving forward (pushing) towards the pitcher as the back elbow lowers.

Moving the hands forward as the back elbow drops is rampant in FP. It is what my DD was doing and it is not high level. Yes, FP players can hit doing it because of the minus 8 bats, but it is not high level. Even with the minus 8 bats, it's easier to hit a ball doing what Pujols and Bustos do, than what Megan Bush does.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

He is turning his hands over, which gets the bat head moving early (backwards, not towards the ball). As his hands are busy at his armpit getting the bat started, the hips have triggered and are leading the way. When you use the hands to get the bat started like Pujols...

The bat head is moving because his shoulders are moving, not because of anything his hands or wrists are doing.

The paper that Tom linked to proved this.

 

[HittingGuru]

Lets try and simplify the process. If the hips initiate the movement of the hands from the load position along with the hinge angle at least moderately being performed and maintained just prior to contact you will see what bustos and puhols performs early in their swings. Despite what any of you think using the top hand in any way up to just prior to contact on the ball causes problems. I found this out the hard way a couple of years ago. Yes you can make contact and hit the ball hard occaisionally but your percentages are off from what I am discussing. I want my hitters to hit for power and average. I want them to have every advantage possible. When the top gets involved early it creates too many inconvenient angles at contact.

 

[ssarge]

The importance of this sequence is how Pujols is using his hands. He is turning his hands over, which gets the bat head moving early (backwards, not towards the ball). As his hands are busy at his armpit getting the bat started, the hips have triggered and are leading the way. . . .

. . . .Check out Pujols' back elbow. His back elbow has dropped down into the slot position, while his hands remain back at his back armpit. Very few coaches and instructors teach this move correctly in FP. The move that is commonly taught in FP results in the hands moving forward (pushing) towards the pitcher as the back elbow lowers.

I see the same thing with the elbow, but have a different idea of which movement is causal, and which movements result. I don't see the hands doing anything early in the swing, other than maintaining proximity to the rear shoulder.


What do others see his rear shoulder doing just before and as the elbow is going down?

Looks to me as if the shoulder rotates downward, and brings the elbow with it. Certainly, the shoulders do not tilt laterally back towards the catcher. Easy to see in a clip like this with the reference points in the background. If anyone sees it differently, could you please repost the frame where "lateral tilt" happens with some lines drawn on it to indicate the tilt you are seeing?

In my view, the rear shoulder never gets further backwards (towards the catcher) than where it starts. It DOES rotate down. The elbow goes with the shoulder. When this happens while the hands stay in position proximate to the rear shoulder, the front elbow goes up - can't help it. Once the shoulder axis has been established (back shoulder lower than the front), the shoulders begin to rotate in that plane. Which is a different axis / plane than the hips, for sure.

It seems clear in the Pujols frames that the hands remain in constant aspect ratio with the rear shoulder until he is well around the corner. I see NO torquing of the hands or forearms, here. Again, if someone does, please help me by marking up the frame and reposting it.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Hitter]

I see the same thing with the elbow, but have a different idea of which movement is causal, and which movements result. I don't see the hands doing anything early in the swing, other than maintaining proximity to the rear shoulder.


What do others see his rear shoulder doing just before and as the elbow is going down?

Looks to me as if the shoulder rotates downward. Certainly, it does not tilt laterally back towards the catcher. Easy to see in a clip like this with the reference points in the background. If anyone sees it differently, could you please repost the frame where "lateral tilt" happens with some lines drawn on it to indicate the tilt you are seeing?

In my view, the rear shoulder never gets further backwards (towards the catcher) than where it starts. It DOES rotate down. The elbow goes with the shoulder. When this happens while the hands stay in position proximate to the rear shoulder, the front elbow goes up - can't help it. Once the shoulder axis has been established (back shoulder lower than the front), the shoulders begin to rotate in that plane. Which is a different axis / plane than the hips, for sure.

It seems clear in the Pujols frames that the hands remain in constant aspect ratio with the rear shoulder until he is well around the corner. I see NO torquing of the hands or forearms, here. Again, if someone does, please help me by marking up the frame and reposting it.

Regards,

Scott

Scott

As a right handed hitter, position your back elbow down with the hand positioned directly over it like it it in the bottom of the slot. Then take your lead hand with the back of your hand on the outside (catchers position side ) of the elbow and pull forward with the lead hand and the front shoulder is going upward or tilting as the back shoulder feels as if it lowering in my opinion. I have been told AP's finger lining up knuckle grip and high elbow is for creating tension as he lowers to be quick in the zone. CB does not do that nor does she grip the bat the same way he does...there is a certain aspect to style and then there are mechanics in my opinion. Is it necessary for a high level swing? Not in my opinion....however he makes more money than any of us

Thanks Howard

 

[ssarge]

I'll try that, Howard.

My comments above were in response to the contention that Pujols is either pulling back towards the catcher with his top hand (THT, or Top-Hand-Torque), or that he was actively turning his forearms with a torquing motion (both hands pulling in opposite directions) to launch the swing.

If he IS doing either of these things, I see no evidence of it in the video frames posted by batsics. What I see in those frames is a very well connected hitter with powerful rotation.

I'm in agreement with Chris:

The bat head is moving because his shoulders are moving, not because of anything his hands or wrists are doing.

The paper that Tom linked to proved this.

Best regards,

Scott

 

[Wellphyt]

I'll just leave you guys with this exchange between Bonds and Jennie Finch.

Bonds, who will face Finch when the Pan Am Games end, has already begun playing mind games, trash talking with Finch at last month's All-Star game.

According to Finch, this is the way it went after she and Bonds were introduced around the batting cage:

Bonds: "I heard you're one of the best. Well, you're not the best until you face the best."

Finch: "You haven't faced my riseball."

Bonds: "You haven't seen my top hand. This is what I'm going to do to you."

With that, the San Francisco Giant slugger hit three pitches into the seats, one to each field.

Notice how Bonds didn't say "You haven't seen my back scap", "You haven't seen my back elbow lower", or "You haven't seen my shoulders rotate".

Nope, it was "You haven't seen my top hand".

Same thing the Chicago White Sox Academy guy was describing.

When you get in a cage against live pitching and do what Pujols, Bonds and Bustos are doing, the advantages become very clear. There is a huge advantage in having your bat head accelerating into the lag position while your hands stay back as you read the pitch.