Tilt

[Hitter]

Does this result in increased elbow flexion or no in your view. Speaking of a middle middle pitch here that doesn't fool the hitter to avoid variables for the moment.

We are all about keeping the elbow flexed and feel we can adjust to anything! When the lead arm elbow straightens our ability to adjust is compromised. We are very focused on the lead elbow making what we term a good first move. In my opinion we think the lead elbow is too high in most swings and it starts in the stance. Try it yourself...hold the hitters wrist ( lead elbow) with the elbow high and ask the hitter to move the elbow forward and they will not have much ability to pull forward. Now try it with the elbow a little lower and YOU will feel the power of the hitter moving the elbow elbow forward and up like it is going up a ramp verses a chicken wing going up or starting higher in my opinion. See it, feel it and fix it!

Thanks Howard

 

[Mark H]

We are all about keeping the elbow flexed and feel we can adjust to anything!

I don't have a problem with that. Griffey Jr's lead arm is not for everyone. I'm trying to figure out the timing you are proposing so I can decide if I really like it or really don't like it.

When the lead arm elbow straightens our ability to adjust is compromised.

Well if the lead elbow straightening represents leaving the hands behind as shoulder rotation starts, then yeah, the hitter is severely compromised. If the lead elbow straightening looks like Griffey Jr or this Photo 6 of 16, ULL vs. UNT you have probably traded some BA for power. Which might be a sound decision depending on your body and your goals. But it's not my default position in terms of what I teach a blank slate kid. Like you, I would prefer to see some degree of elbow flexion at shoulder launch and that flexion angle maintained through the early part of shoulder rotation.

We are very focused on the lead elbow making what we term a good first move.

The first move into unloading is critical in all areas so I can't disagree with your focus on a first move.

In my opinion we think the lead elbow is too high in most swings and it starts in the stance.

I want the lead elbow to be in plane at the start or very close to the start of shoulder rotation. Photo 1 of 31, Analysis

 

[Hitter]

I don't have a problem with that. Griffey Jr's lead arm is not for everyone. I'm trying to figure out the timing you are proposing so I can decide if I really like it or really don't like it.



Well if the lead elbow straightening represents leaving the hands behind as shoulder rotation starts, then yeah, the hitter is severely compromised. If the lead elbow straightening looks like Griffey Jr or this Photo 6 of 16, ULL vs. UNT you have probably traded some BA for power. Which might be a sound decision depending on your body and your goals. But it's not my default position in terms of what I teach a blank slate kid. Like you, I would prefer to see some degree of elbow flexion at shoulder launch and that flexion angle maintained through the early part of shoulder rotation.




The first move into unloading is critical in all areas so I can't disagree with your focus on a first move.




I want the lead elbow to be in plane at the start or very close to the start of shoulder rotation. Photo 1 of 31, Analysis

I know Jr. and Sr. and his cousin Freddie I worked with, In Srs. words, "His hand path is great!"

You really have to put a style with each kid as they are all a little different. I will say for me the hands inside the ball and the flex in the lead arm are huge!

His cousin was a better football player than hitter at Forest Park High School.

Thanks Howard

 

[Mark H]

You really have to put a style with each kid as they are all a little different.

I agree. I think it's best to work with each individual's tendencies.

I will say for me the hands inside the ball and the flex in the lead arm are huge!
Thanks Howard

Some people mean things by those phrases that I really really agree with. Some people mean something entirely different by those phrases so I'm exploring your meaning. This flex in the lead arm, what is the timing of it in relation to shoulder rotation? Thanks.

 

[RayR]

We are all about keeping the elbow flexed and feel we can adjust to anything! When the lead arm elbow straightens our ability to adjust is compromised. We are very focused on the lead elbow making what we term a good first move. In my opinion we think the lead elbow is too high in most swings and it starts in the stance. Try it yourself...hold the hitters wrist ( lead elbow) with the elbow high and ask the hitter to move the elbow forward and they will not have much ability to pull forward. Now try it with the elbow a little lower and YOU will feel the power of the hitter moving the elbow elbow forward and up like it is going up a ramp verses a chicken wing going up or starting higher in my opinion. See it, feel it and fix it!

Thanks Howard

Howard, what do you consider too high? Upper arm perpendicular to the spine? Higher then perpendicular?

BTW, saw Bustos this weekend at Mohegan Sun. Not as tall as I imagined - only makes her HR prowess more impressive. From the little I heard from her I liked - made sense. Talked about not spinning on the back foot and collapsing the back side. Also, talked about the game being around a long time and why bother with trying to reinvent the wheel in terms of hitting instruction.

 

[Hitter]

Howard, what do you consider too high? Upper arm perpendicular to the spine? Higher then perpendicular?

BTW, saw Bustos this weekend at Mohegan Sun. Not as tall as I imagined - only makes her HR prowess more impressive. From the little I heard from her I liked - made sense. Talked about not spinning on the back foot and collapsing the back side. Also, talked about the game being around a long time and why bother with trying to reinvent the wheel in terms of hitting instruction.

Our approach is very simple and you will never hear her talking about scap loading etc. very simple!

Lead elbow just hangs down. We make no effort to raise the elbow and try to keep the front shoulder level to down. You will see some hitters as they separate raise the front shoulder or angle it upward (tilting backwards) and we do not. We find we get more power with the lead elbow down and not raised. We take our back hand and make rabbit ears and place our back hand palm down and place our lead hand elbow on top of our hand. We say where our lead hand elbow was our lead hand will be. We do not loose contact with the top hand which our elbow is resting on and then when the lead elbow moves forward it is going forward and up slightly like it is going up a ramp and now our hand is resting where the elbow was!

This movement of the elbow is taking place as we are turning and the tilting, adjusting to the incoming pitch is taking place. If you hold onto the hitters lead wrist and have it low and ask them to move it forward and up slightly you can feel the mechanical advantage. Now start the elbow higher and you will feel you have lost that advantage.

Thanks Howard

 

[Mark H]

Our approach is very simple and you will never hear her talking about scap loading etc. very simple!

Lead elbow just hangs down. We make no effort to raise the elbow and try to keep the front shoulder level to down. You will see some hitters as they separate raise the front shoulder or angle it upward (tilting backwards) and we do not. We find we get more power with the lead elbow down and not raised.

Thanks Howard

So when you say you see the lead elbow too high you are talking about it being lifted by the lead shoulder being too high due to tilt back toward the catcher before rotation? I'd have to agree with that I think if I understand you. I was picturing your comments as the lead elbow location related to the swing plane.

 

[Hitter]

So when you say you see the lead elbow too high you are talking about it being lifted by the lead shoulder being too high due to tilt back toward the catcher before rotation? I'd have to agree with that I think if I understand you. I was picturing your comments as the lead elbow location related to the swing plane.

Mark I see some hitters try to keep the lead elbow especially high prior to the load and then when they separate the hands go back too far.

Others will start the elbow upward verses the elbow moving forward as a unit and staying connected. For me it starts in the the stance as we want to keep the elbow intentionally and when we separate I want to feel some tension in the lead arm at the shoulder joint. If the elbow is too to start I found the shoulders roll in more verses the hands coming back a little.

Ask a girl to raise her hands and watch what happens....they will raise their elbows and hands as a unit when in the stance as they do not understand the elbow is a hinge. I will put myy finger in the elbow joint and say not raise your hands and their elbow does not move UP!

Thanks Howard

 

[Mark H]

Mark I see some hitters try to keep the lead elbow especially high prior to the load and then when they separate the hands go back too far.

OK but where do you want the lead elbow in relation to the swing plane as the shoulders strart to rotate.

Others will start the elbow upward verses the elbow moving forward as a unit and staying connected.

OK, when the elbow moves forward as a unit, as a unit with what and when? What is moving the elbow forward? Flexion or shoulder rotation?

Ask a girl to raise her hands and watch what happens....they will raise their elbows and hands as a unit when in the stance as they do not understand the elbow is a hinge. I will put myy finger in the elbow joint and say not raise your hands and their elbow does not move UP!

When in the swing are you describing here?

All this would be a lot simpler if we were standing in front of each other demonstrating of course. When two people without a developed common vocabulary and point of view discuss hitting with the written word, it's tough.

 

[Hitter]

OK but where do you want the lead elbow in relation to the swing plane as the shoulders strart to rotate.



OK, when the elbow moves forward as a unit, as a unit with what and when? What is moving the elbow forward? Flexion or shoulder rotation?



When in the swing are you describing here?

All this would be a lot simpler if we were standing in front of each other demonstrating of course. When two people without a developed common vocabulary and point of view discuss hitting with the written word, it's tough.

I copied this so everyone is understanding what it is we are talking about...In anatomy, flexion is a position that is made possible by the joint angle decreasing. The skeletal (bones, cartilage, and ligaments) and muscular (muscles and tendons) systems work together to move the joint into a "flexed" position. For example the elbow is flexed when the hand is brought closer to the shoulder. The trunk may be flexed toward the legs or the neck to the chest.

The opposite term is extension, or straightening. Flexion decreases the angle between the bones of the limb at a joint, and extension increases it.

Note that specific flexion activities may occur only along the sagittal plane, i.e. from the forward to backward direction, and not side-to-side direction, which is further discussed in abduction.

In anatomy, flexion is a position that is made possible by the joint angle decreasing. The skeletal (bones, cartilage, and ligaments) and muscular (muscles and tendons) systems work together to move the joint into a "flexed" position. For example the elbow is flexed when the hand is brought closer to the shoulder. The trunk may be flexed toward the legs or the neck to the chest.

The opposite term is extension, or straightening. Flexion decreases the angle between the bones of the limb at a joint, and extension increases it.

Note that specific flexion activities may occur only along the sagittal plane, i.e. from the forward to backward direction, and not side-to-side direction, which is further discussed in abduction.

When we talk about making a good first move, I key into the lead elbow making a good first move. Stand in front of one of your students and for sake of argument they are right handed. Take your right hand palm and open it with the finger tips upward and the palm of the hand at about the height of the shoulder and when they start the lead elbow I see the start of the elbow travel to about 2 to 4 inches being more linear than rotational. Again remember the back elbow is lowering as we make this transition forward and then depending on the location of the pitch how far we rotate with our hip using the belly button as an indication of how far we want to rotate and for this example lets make it a pitch right down the middle. Then would mean our belly button is rotating back towards the pitcher and the barrel of the bat would be even to the front of home plate provided I measured off from the back corner of home plate. Your lead elbow would have touched the palm of my hand and then went a little towards the third base dugout from the shoulder rotation and where is the knob of the bat? Now take your left hand palm facing the hitter finger tips up and the palm of the left hand lower than the right hand and the knob of the bat should be pointing and touching the left hand palm to some extent and we should be at bat lag. If the hands went too linear you will not see the shoulders turning and you were too linear. If the hands, knob of bat were directed over home plate your lead arm was straightening out and most likely the back hand is pushing the bat. We want the back hand stacked directly over the back elbow or what we term staying strong on the backside so the lead elbow would have to go forward first and then being moved upward like it is going up at a slight angle or ramp or your elbow is too high or too low and you would not have touch the palm of my hand. The degree of tilt is slave so to speak of the hitters knowledge of their body and instincts and we adjust the bat angle accordingly. If bat lag was inside the path of the ball then the knob would be directed to the left palm which is lower than the right hand palm creating an angle and the un hinging of the wrist releases the barrel to the ball. This is why I made the hand path device was to show a check point to the hitter of the lead elbow touching the bent piece and then directing the knob of the bat to the colored tape that best fits their hand path and the ball on the other end can be adjusted so the ball is in their exact sweet spot. Unless they are turning as they are tilting they will not square up to the ball and usually are pulling away because they over rotated and in this case the over rotation could be seen as the belly button would be pointing to the short stops normal playing position or even the third baseman's playing position. If the hitter was not turning their chest towards the oncoming ball we have probably not stayed inside the path of the ball. If my lead arm elbow and shoulder are some what straight verses stretched out and angled further back I do not feel we can make a powerful first move because the elbow would have to be higher because it is stretched back. This is another reason we tap the back of our helmet to set the position of the front shoulder to the hands to establish the angle of the bat at about 45 degreet. We do not want the bat tilted so far towards the pitcher that we could not touch the back of the helmet.

As we come to contact and release the barrel to the ball there will still be some bend in the lead arm elbow as we feel we are stronger with a flexed arm verses being straighter. Stand with your lead arm straight out extended away from your body and have someone put a finger by your wrist and you try to move your arm forward. Then repeat with a flexed arm and have then hold the wrist from behind and you should be able to apply more force. Now add in the rotation of the hips and we have more power. This is why I use the rope when first teaching the hand path so they know what it is supposed to feel like and look like at bat lag and that includes the tilt and turn with the elbows working as a unit and the knob leading the elbows from shoulder rotation.

Thanks Howard