So.....Peel or Roll-over....why is one better then the other?

[sluggers]

A peel drop is really a snapped pitch whereby your hand is behind the ball and snapped across your body using I/R. The rollover does not have the same whip and the pitcher must get on the side of the ball and push it down.

You honestly believe that Finch, Smith and Scarborough throw the rollover (and again, I'm using "rollover" until someone comes up with a better name) because it is slower and doesn't break as much?

My DD's drop was 2 to 3 MPH slower than her fastball.

Here is Finch throwing a drop:

[video=youtube_share;JsV8Sy1u-YM]http://youtu.be/JsV8Sy1u-YM[/video]

 

[marriard]

For the most part, the notion of one pitch being naturally better than another is pretty stupid. Pitch types come and go and are popular/not popular over time as the best pitchers get copied by others until the next great pitcher comes along and then people copy them. (Edit: Or people adjust)

You throw a GREAT pitch of a certain type you will do just fine with it especially if you have another GREAT/ABOVE AVERAGE pitch and a couple of good other pitches. There is no right or wrong type of drop or change or rise or whatever - they can all be effective when thrown WELL and at the right time with the right variety.

We aren't training robots out there. There are fundamentals which are important, but there is going to be a huge variation in style and substance as there should be.

An out is an out. There are no extra points for getting someone out with a particular type of pitch or style of throwing that pitch. All I care as a coach is that the batter is out.

 

[CoachFP]

True enough..............



Physically impossible........



True again........

Not sure what part is physically impossible but in what I have seen of rollover drops the hand is not behind the ball like it is on a "peel". That's what makes it a slower pitch. So if the hand is not behind the ball is must be on the side of the ball. If it's the "push down" part, I may have been a little liberal with that term but it is like a snap downward vs across, so I call it a push.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The rollover does not have the same whip and the pitcher must get on the side of the ball and push it down.

I believe what would help is if you could provide a video clip supporting this.

 

[Hillhouse]

I didn't even read this thread, I just clicked on the last page of the thread.

Sluggers, what I see (very clearly) on the clip you put of Finch is: She clearly rolls the drop off her finger tips (a la peel drop) THEN she turns her hand over. It's very similar to how she does her "hello elbow" when she pitches: watch her live... she snaps her elbow across her body, then brings it back over as if she "forgot" to do her "h/e" motion. Obviously, I cannot speak for how your daughter threw, but the overwhelming majority of girls who tell me they throw a "turn over" or "roll over" drop actually throw a peel (similar to how I throw mine, how CoachFP throws his, etc.) then does that turn over afterward for whatever reason. They actually release the ball, then do a turn over action afterward.

I truly think the problem is, people complicate the peel drop and misunderstand it. A lot of the time, in various places, I see them trying to pull up when they throw, which completely refutes the snap or whip of the elbow that they actually need for this pitch. Yet most of the time when girls throw their "Fastball" they get a drop action to it. Many don't know how they did it, and they look at me in disbelief when I tell them they simply did not overcomplicate the pitch and had a good release point to help the rotation.

Bill

 

[abbygale]

I wonder if the rollover finish came about due to pitchers thinking about "throwing it downhill" and that finish/movement created the sense of staying on top. Sort of like how the HE could give a sense of accuracy.

 

[Rocketech1]

First off, I agree that the hand does not actually roll over the top of the ball at release for the "rollover drop".

However, when you watch Jennie throw her drop, I do believe the pulling of the throwing shoulder has some effect on the ball at release even though the ball is mostly gone when the shoulder is pulled forward. The action happens so quickly and are set in motion well upstream that her attempt pull the shoulder and hand over the top of the ball creates a slightly different release angle and pressure on the ball different than if she just stayed back and threw a typical peel drop without trying to get on top of the ball. An example is in hitting when instructors tell the batter to get good "extension" before finishing the swing. The ball has already left the bat so why is extension important? Because the act of getting good "extension" takes place before you reach the point of contact (bat hits ball). Same thing happens with pitching.

The bottomline is that very small adjustments (e.g. attempting to pull the throwing shoulder towards the target) can and do effect the release angle, spin, and velocity of the pitch because the rollover drop mechanic need to start prior to release of the ball. I'm convinced that if you had Jennie throw both the peel drop and the rollover drop you would see some differences between the two pitches.

 

[CoachFP]

I didn't even read this thread, I just clicked on the last page of the thread.

Sluggers, what I see (very clearly) on the clip you put of Finch is: She clearly rolls the drop off her finger tips (a la peel drop) THEN she turns her hand over. It's very similar to how she does her "hello elbow" when she pitches: watch her live... she snaps her elbow across her body, then brings it back over as if she "forgot" to do her "h/e" motion. Obviously, I cannot speak for how your daughter threw, but the overwhelming majority of girls who tell me they throw a "turn over" or "roll over" drop actually throw a peel (similar to how I throw mine, how CoachFP throws his, etc.) then does that turn over afterward for whatever reason. They actually release the ball, then do a turn over action afterward.

I truly think the problem is, people complicate the peel drop and misunderstand it. A lot of the time, in various places, I see them trying to pull up when they throw, which completely refutes the snap or whip of the elbow that they actually need for this pitch. Yet most of the time when girls throw their "Fastball" they get a drop action to it. Many don't know how they did it, and they look at me in disbelief when I tell them they simply did not overcomplicate the pitch and had a good release point to help the rotation.

Bill

Bill, here's what I do with my pitchers. They show me their fastball (peel) then they show me their drop (rollover). Then I tell them that their fastball is now their drop and we work to get better snap and follow through on that. The ability to make it move far exceeds the rollover version. I also tell them the screwball no longer is an option. We can therefore focus on just 3 pitches. This has allowed me to compete against teams that have much bigger name pitchers who still have 5 or 6 pitches.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Bill, here's what I do with my pitchers. They show me their fastball (peel) then they show me their drop (rollover). Then I tell them that their fastball is now their drop and we work to get better snap and follow through on that. The ability to make it move far exceeds the rollover version. I also tell them the screwball no longer is an option. We can therefore focus on just 3 pitches. This has allowed me to compete against teams that have much bigger name pitchers who still have 5 or 6 pitches.

Black above .... I agree with that approach and have done the same thing.

Red above .... What do you do to "work to get better snap and follow through"?

 

[Ken B]

Red above .... What do you do to "work to get better snap and follow through"?

Hillhouse talked about this in another thread, but I can't find it. Something about a focus on his whip when he struggled with his drop. Hopefully he'll stop by and talk some about this.