So.....Peel or Roll-over....why is one better then the other?

[Ken B]

I think the rollover feel/cue is a short cut to 12/6 spin for those that struggle getting it with their FB. I don't think its just a follow through. I think those who use I/R mechanics with their 12/6 fastball (thanks FFS) are mistaken for throwing a rollover. I'd guess that many believe the peel must be thrown with the palm facing forward and staying palm forward in follow through to be a true peel. For them, any natural rotation of the hand in follow through is a rollover.

As I was learning with my kids, I found I struggled with getting a 12/6 FB. The rollover feel/cue worked for me to get 12/6 spin. Since, I've been able to get a 12/6 other ways, but the rollover feel is still the easiest.

 

[CoachFP]

I can walk to my neighboring D1 mid-major, drive to three D1s and one other D1 mid-major, and sit behind the backstop, and I just wonder what you are watching. Not the highest echelon but some WCWS regionals and conference championship appearances. I thought that higher velocity pitches break less, aka the peel is higher velocity. Please lets' not get into biomechanics, but throwing slower means more spin, a la Cat, at least that is what folks say when they want to make that argument (throwing hard doesn't matter, they say). So the turnover, which is slower, breaks more, and spins more.

The peel has a slight down break when low and yes is a de facto fastball. However, when low pitches are not called, the pitchers try to bring it up. Then it has a hump that the hitters can see and make contact with. Every pitcher I watch has a screwball they feature prominently.

Take in consideration that competition is thinking your approach is better than the other guy's, although I am not sure we take the time to really watch the other guy from behind the backstop or at least ask our hitters what they saw and thought. I see no reason you can't learn both, and figure it out for yourself. I typically see four excellent pitches from those I watch, moving to four quadrants. And the best have at least one if not two changes of speed.

Out in Left Field, you typically see four quality pitches from those you watch? Ha ha. You must be wearing some kind of crazy goggles. I see quite a few mid major college pitchers up close (and some upper tier as well) and you might get two quality pitches, maybe, and if you get to three, it's a rarity.
Throwing slower doesn't mean more spin. You are misinterpreting something you have read. It is obvious you have never pitched before. It makes clear sense to me that the ball being snapped off the fingers will spin faster than one that is "rolled over". Osterman's spins tightly and she doesn't roll it over and it is not a "de facto fastball".

 

[Rick Pauly]

FF
It's all about transferring energy.....in the case of most pitches, Internal Rotation and Brush Interference will improve energy transfer.
A simple yet effective way to put energy into the ball: Have your pitcher snap off a great I/R dropball but after release not let her hand progress past the centerline of her body.....we call this the "Stop Dead Drill". It is another method of cracking the whip.....another description might be to eliminate any follow through. Remember, its a drill that isolates a violent release action. In real life-full motion pitching some of this violence will begin to happen naturally.

Black above .... I agree with that approach and have done the same thing.

Red above ....

What do you do to "work to get better snap and follow through

"?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

FF
It's all about transferring energy.....in the case of most pitches, Internal Rotation and Brush Interference will improve energy transfer.
A simple yet effective way to put energy into the ball: Have your pitcher snap off a great I/R dropball but after release not let her hand progress past the centerline of her body.....we call this the "Stop Dead Drill". It is another method of cracking the whip.....another description might be to eliminate any follow through. Remember, its a drill that isolates a violent release action. In real life-full motion pitching some of this violence will begin to happen naturally.

Rick, that actually makes a lot of sense to me. Don't know why that didn't occur to me. We do a similar snap/stop drill in hitting. Thank you!

 

[dadonachair]

I don't want to start another argument here but I watch two different pitchers on my DD team. One throws a turn over drop and from what I have seen from this is she has a hard time throwing it inside to a right handed batter while the girl that has a natural peel drop to her can go inside and outside with her drop. Now I will say that the girl that throws the peel is a better pitcher than the other one but the question here is. Do most girls that throw a turn over drop have trouble throwing it inside to a righty or is it just her?

 

[Rick Pauly]

Not sure the spin rate discussion is quite as important as some perceive it to be. Here are some decent spin rate averages for four pitches that have 12/6 dropping type spin. These would be indicative of high level travel ball pitchers:

Fastball----------22RPS
Snapover drop--22RPS (action identical to fastball)
Peel drop--------20RPS
Roll drop--------18RPS

Are there exceptions to these averages.....yes, both ways. I would venture to guess that I have measured more spin rates then 99.99% of the persons on this site....there is a ton of data on all levels of pitchers these numbers are drawn from.

The real point I would make with this post is that spin rate is about the 5th or 6th most important criteria for making a dropball move. Would I take 22RPS over 18RPS, heck yes I would take every advantage possible. But there are usually several more important criteria most pitchers need to work on that would provide better results.

 

[Rocketech1]

The real point I would make with this post is that spin rate is about the 5th or 6th most important criteria for making a dropball move. Would I take 22RPS over 18RPS, heck yes I would take every advantage possible. But there are usually several more important criteria most pitchers need to work on that would provide better results.

Ok, I will bite. What are those 5 or 6 things more important than spin rate for the drop ball? Speed, location, angle of pitch, ???

Also, when doing all of your spin rate analysis, who determined that one pitch was a fastball and another was say a peel drop?

 

[Rick Pauly]

RT
I think you hit on a few in your post. I'll give my opinion of the criteria in order of importance.
1. Speed (More speed=less time for gravity to pull the ball; less speed=more time for gravity to pull the ball down)
2. Release Angle (minimum upward angle possible and yet the ball finishes at the bottom of the zone)
3. Release Point (how high is release point; the higher the release point the less release angle required)
4. Spin Axis (Axis parallel to the ground is best=12/6 spin)
5. Spin Rate (A good high school spin rate is 18RPS;higher spin rate=more pressure differential)
6. Seam Orientation (Not as huge an advantage as I once thought, but 4 seams vs 2 seams creates more pressure differential)

To your other question about determining what pitch it was; this info is taken during lessons given by me with tons of trial and error type experimenting. To substantiate the release action I have an instant feedback video setup in my pitching room.....so I can verify what really happened at time of release.

Ok, I will bite. What are those 5 or 6 things more important than spin rate for the drop ball? Speed, location, angle of pitch, ???

Also, when doing all of your spin rate analysis, who determined that one pitch was a fastball and another was say a peel drop?

 

[Ken B]

I'd be interested in knowing the correlation between the spin and speed of the listed (or any) pitches.

Not sure the spin rate discussion is quite as important as some perceive it to be. Here are some decent spin rate averages for four pitches that have 12/6 dropping type spin. These would be indicative of high level travel ball pitchers:

Fastball----------22RPS
Snapover drop--22RPS (action identical to fastball)
Peel drop--------20RPS
Roll drop--------18RPS

Are there exceptions to these averages.....yes, both ways. I would venture to guess that I have measured more spin rates then 99.99% of the persons on this site....there is a ton of data on all levels of pitchers these numbers are drawn from.

The real point I would make with this post is that spin rate is about the 5th or 6th most important criteria for making a dropball move. Would I take 22RPS over 18RPS, heck yes I would take every advantage possible. But there are usually several more important criteria most pitchers need to work on that would provide better results.

 

[JAD]

The best answer would be to throw the one that is the best match for the pitchers mechanics. My DD throws both - she throws the "peel" with more velocity, but she is more likely to "hang" a peel right in the batters wheelhouse. She can vary the speed of the rollover and throws a drop/curve with a rollover motion.