So.....Peel or Roll-over....why is one better then the other?

[RubberBiscuit]

RB, can you expand a little on why you don't like the crop (or drop curve) for a righty? Thanks!

Righty pitcher to mostly righty batters the ball stays on swing plane. IE easier to hit.

 

[RubberBiscuit]

I've observed that when a batter misses the ball the vast majority of the time they miss by swinging under the ball. Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't a peal drop tend to help these batters?

If batters miss more often under the ball, isn't a riseball still a top, possibly the top, pitch if the pitcher can actually mix it up with a drop-ball and change-up?

That's exactly where DD & I landed with her primary pitch selection. I wouldn't change this for the world (given she is a RHP)

 

[JJsqueeze]

batters usually miss under the ball by a little, say an inch or two. A good drop breaking down 8-12 inches is not going to help a batter, and when they make contact it is going to be weaker and mostly grounders. Hang a riseball and you have a homerun. I'm not saying one is better than another. Pitch selection has too many variables and pitchers are too widely varied to make blanket statement like that, but we should not discount the effectiveness of a good drop ball or imply that it will help a batter. A weak drop may end up being a blessing, but the same goes for all weak breaking pitches.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Q: Why is the drop becoming more important in college softball?
A: Hot bats. In the old days, a good riseball pitcher would get strikeouts, popups and a few flyballs. With the modern hot bats, many of those popups are ending up on the other side of the fence. It is amazing how many mishit balls which should be outs end up over the fence. If a pitcher throws a drop, the ball gets hit hard, it will be a double at best.

The notion that drop-balls don't lead to home-runs is not correct. A 'good' swing will have an increased diagonal swing path for a pitch low in the zone, with a potential result being a jack. Go through the 'model swings' thread and you'll see several home-runs off of balls pitched low in the zone.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

A peel drop in arguably the fastest pitch a pitcher can throw, my guess is it has the most complete IR.

My other guess is the only pitch thrown with no IR is maybe a certain style of change up.


No IR = slow.

Bold above ... that is not 'always' the case. Some pitchers make enhanced usage of ground reaction forces during their riseball and can throw it at speeds equal to, or greater, than their dropball.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

this video shows a roll-over drop Angela Tincher Drop Ball - YouTube

Video simply calls this a "drop ball".

Do you have video comparing her 'roll-over' and 'peel'?

 

[Westwind]

Rubberbiscuit,

Lol, yeah but BH has the credentials to back up his opinion and he backs it with facts instead of speaking in generalities like "that's how all the college kids do it" or "my way is the only way colleges do it".

I was posting before morning coffee and I have a bad attitude just like the Snickers commercials until I get my java. I think my point was that some guy who had a dd that pitched and now gives lessons shouldn't really be telling parents that he knows the only way to pitch or hit or whatever. And those parents should consider the source, that the guy prob has experience and can help their dd but he probably isn't an undiscovered softball savant. Sorry if I came off like a know it all.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I've observed that when a batter misses the ball the vast majority of the time they miss by swinging under the ball. Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't a peal drop tend to help these batters?

If batters miss more often under the ball, isn't a riseball still a top, possibly the top, pitch if the pitcher can actually mix it up with a drop-ball and change-up?

That is correct ... a large percentage of mishit balls will be below the center of the ball.

Also consider that a pitch low in the zone will have a 'good' hitter using more of a diagonal barrel path ... and that can lead to balls pitched low in the zone being lifted.

 

[sluggers]

Here is a video illustrating the whole "peel" vs. "rollover" confusion...

[video=youtube_share;X1ziC1eH7l4]http://youtu.be/X1ziC1eH7l4[/video]

Notice that she explains the "peel" method of throwing a drop...and then she throws a drop using a "rollover" technique to get the ball to move.

Michelle Smith is one of the top softball pitchers ever, and she doesn't even know what she is doing when throwing a drop.

 

[CoachFP]

That is not what I said.

Here is what I wrote:



Cat Osterman does not throw a better drop than my DD. They are about the same.

BUT: That does *NOT* mean my DD was as good as Cat Osterman. Cat is a much, much better pitcher than my DD. Cat has a great rise and great changeup, which is why she is one of the best pitchers ever.

My DD couldn't throw a rise at all, and my DD's change was awful. She had pinpoint control with her fastball and drop, and she changed speeds with her drop.



1) Emphasis on the word *actually*. There aren't many pitchers who can throw a *GOOD* drop and a *GOOD* rise. It is very, very difficult to throw both. In my 30+ years of watching softball, I've never seen an 18U kid at a TB tournament with the ability to throw both. (The pitcher has to be able to throw a rise or a drop close enough to the strike zone to make a good batter swing. Daddies routinely underestimate how difficult it is to throw both of these pitches well.)

2) IMHO, the rise ball is really losing ground. There is a huge difference between college ball and TB hiters. The good college hitters are very good. The good hitters aren't going to whiff a rise. They are going to get a piece of the ball. With the hot bats, balls which should be be pop ups are flying out of the park. (There is a whole team in Lafayette, LA using a split grip and are hitting home runs...these bats are ridiculous.)

Keilanni Ricketts abandoned the rise in the 2013 CWS, probably because of the home runs being hit.

You said you never saw a better drop than your daughter's. Very simple to read. I know you have seen Cat Osterman. So I asked you was your daughter's drop better than Osterman's, since you had never seen a better one. So it was what you said. I just asked a question, and it wasn't "was your DD better than Osterman". I already knew that answer.