Help! Lack of Drop Ball Bite

[speedseeker11]

Hi everyone, I know I owe a lot of people a lot of responses on this thread. Wow, can't get over the wealth and learning that is possible here. So before I went ahead and started the process of catching up I thought I would pass along a heartfelt thanks. Can't tell you how much I've (we've) learned from your input. Ok, about this drop...

First, a video. In short working on it. You'd think it would be a hell of a lot easier. When considering 6 days a week school ball, 3 days a week travel ball, pitching lessons, hitting lessons, and 3 days a week weight lifting and a few bullpens a week with the old man it can get tough to fit something new in. That said, I'll get one! Be nice though, mechanics are still being worked out as a HE to IR convert and her PC (Who we think is an absolutely fantastic D1 Fordham powerhouse) is, to some degree, embracing what DD is showing mechanics wise. Stay tuned on this front. And believe me, we don't push her on these things...she loves all of it.

One thing that seems to have started to help is the use of the bands. As her PC says we need to "find the right arc" for her. We've placed a window about 8 feet in front of her to give her feedback that she can adjust to. After a few pitches we adjust its height to try and create the desired effect of the drop. Definitely seems to be helping.

Another piece of advice we've adopted from this thread is drawing quarter sized circles on the ball to monitor spin - I think there's something to this "spin isn't right" idea. Weird thing is when she's doing her warmup drills the spin looks great and the ball drops sharply - right at dear old dads feet! Seems her release from might have some variation in it. I'm beginning to think, like some of you have pointed out, is things might be related to the action of her release. More study happening here. Have to be careful though as we're in the middle of her school season and getting ready to start a heavy travel ball season.
With regard to being too short or tall...not a believer. When I said "this is what I was thinking" i was referring to the reference to the potential for her release action to be changing from pitch to pitch.

On the drop being her primary tool, we think this idea might be changing. She was taught a palm up curve this last off season and she's been seeing interesting results even though its not "curving" like you might expect (is thrown on a bit of an angle with 3-9 spin. Seems to "Hover" so to speak and snipe the outside corner. Curves at times but right now not much if at all. Gets called to throw it maybe 20% of the time now. See's fouls and weak hits (one or two solid hits where she let it float over the center of the plate) on it so far. Seems to be service a a bit of an off speed as well when compared to her FB. All this to say, now we're thinking the rise might be a good tool for her given her success with the palm up curve. Shrug, we'll see I guess.

OK finally, you'll see a number of responses after this one because I'm going to go back and answer/comment on a series of posts I found interesting so get ready!

Again, thanks for everything. More helpful than you can imagine. What a journey!

 

[speedseeker11]

You have to be sure you know what type of spin she's putting on the ball and if it changes from pitch to pitch, otherwise it's just speculation. Take a marker and put quarter size spots on the ball, this will allow you see the spin. If the spin changes from the pitch that drops to the one that doesn't then you know what the issue is and where to start. And for IR just use your phone and take some video in slow motion. If her elbow is leading down into release and her hand is on the side of the ball you're good, if her hand is getting on top of the ball coming into release then she's pushing and not using IR efficiently.

Great advice. Doing now. Initial results show a "wiggling" ball coming in. Not bullet spin, but what i would consider less effective 12/6 spin. On to something I think. This would indicate a mechanics/release issue right.

 

[speedseeker11]

Seen many pitchers with that bullet spin/off center axis whose pitches don't drop be very effective with a thigh high "riseball".

Am feeling like we're starting to head down this road. Think it's time to chat with the PC to get the riseball introduced? Or maybe we go through this season continuing to work the curve and drop. She basicall moves in and out well locating the FB, throws a fairly effective CU (Hits spot 40% and another 40% misses the spot but is still an effective pitch, lets not talk about the remaining 20%) and uses the curve as both an offspead pitch to get ahead.

 

[El Oso]

Am feeling like we're starting to head down this road. Think it's time to chat with the PC to get the riseball introduced? Or maybe we go through this season continuing to work the curve and drop. She basicall moves in and out well locating the FB, throws a fairly effective CU (Hits spot 40% and another 40% misses the spot but is still an effective pitch, lets not talk about the remaining 20%) and uses the curve as both an offspead pitch to get ahead.

Most pitching coaches say that it is infinitely harder to teach a kid a riseball AFTER teaching them a curve while being much easier to teach a curve after teaching them a rise. In summary, teach them up and down pitches first, then the curve. I would have the PC stop teaching the curve right now and start teaching the rise before muscle memory gets too hard to correct.

 

[speedseeker11]

Most pitching coaches say that it is infinitely harder to teach a kid a riseball AFTER teaching them a curve while being much easier to teach a curve after teaching them a rise. In summary, teach them up and down pitches first, then the curve. I would have the PC stop teaching the curve right now and start teaching the rise before muscle memory gets too hard to correct.

Interesting! I'll have that chat. Funny thing is her primary catcher says her curve often looks "kind of like a rise." It's an odd observation because the spin is most certainly 3-9/4-10 with the dot slightly dipped forward toward the catcher. It sort of hovers like the old school flying saucers just without or with little curve bite.

 

[speedseeker11]

I don't even know how to answer this. Wow, my head is spinning. LOL. Where is the ball 4 ft out? 8 feet out? I've never thought of such things. But, to be 100% clear, ALL pitches need to be spotted correctly!

In my experience, both playing and coaching, there's 2 main things that hurt a dropball. And both of them are assuming that correct spin is on the ball, 6/12 rotation with 4 seams. FIRST issue is usually a bad release point. Releasing the ball late will angle the ball upwards towards the hitter, even if we're just talking a couple degrees upward. But that angle upward, combined with the pitcher's velocity means it will get to the catcher before it can break. SECOND is simply over throwing. Trying to throw the ball too hard flattens it out, this is true of almost every pitch.

Can there be other things? Of course. The more whip the elbow does in the pitch, the more RPM's will be put on the rotation. But it also has to be correct rotation! Getting great spin that is not correct spin is a waste of time. But you're asking us to diagnose an ailment without seeing the patient. Even a video (if you posted one) doesn't show if there's correct spin, it will only show if correct spin is even possible.

I really think you're over thinking the problem. If you're trying to figure out where the ball is 4 feet out, etc. I think there's a lot being over thought. Use Occum's razor as your guide: all things being equal, the simplest answer is probably the correct one.

Mr. Hillhouse, this is tremendously helpful. Regarding release point, any recommendations on how to dial that release point in better? We've started using the pitching straps that were recommended earlier to create the right height of tunnel after release. Seems to be helping a bit but once we take them down we're back to where we started.

On over pitching, have to say never would have thought about that. Always operated under the assumption that throwing harder is better but what you describe makes complete sense. We'll experiment with the idea.

Finally, I understand you're in Pennsylvania? Maybe after the summer season concludes we'll see about making a trip out for some lessons? Would be a great road trip for DD and the old man.

 

[Mike-Coach Q]

I go 7 ft out and set the string just above knee height.

Here is what you need to be using. Chinese jumping rope.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07PKFJNT1?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

The ball will not change direction (the rope is elastic) and the colors are easy to see for a visual aid.

This is what I ordered, 2 pk because I have two pitchers going. You can order singles. CAUTION tie a knot at each end. Or else the elastic center will move within the outer rope. Leaving the outer sleeve shriveled up with the rope separated.

Hey, I caught one off the shin 3 weeks ago and there is still a big knot. You have to take one for the team and… remember to put on your shin guards

With the rope set. I tell them to think of shooting a basketball upside down, over the rope/rim and into a target/hoop below the rope.

Something similar to this set up.

 

[Tango]

Most pitching coaches say that it is infinitely harder to teach a kid a riseball AFTER teaching them a curve while being much easier to teach a curve after teaching them a rise. In summary, teach them up and down pitches first, then the curve. I would have the PC stop teaching the curve right now and start teaching the rise before muscle memory gets too hard to correct.

Never heard that teaching curve first hurts the rise. I like for the curve ball to go up instead of down also. Not saying wrong just never heard of rise first. The best local guy always teaches curve first and he taught my DD. I do lessons now with 10 girls. My DD and one other HS kid that could throw rise and curve when I got them. Two MS kids that are not throwing curve or rise yet. Two that are pretty advanced but curve and rise are their last two pitches. Rise is better than curve. Rest are young.

 

[El Oso]

Never heard that teaching curve first hurts the rise. I like for the curve ball to go up instead of down also. Not saying wrong just never heard of rise first. The best local guy always teaches curve first and he taught my DD. I do lessons now with 10 girls. My DD and one other HS kid that could throw rise and curve when I got them. Two MS kids that are not throwing curve or rise yet. Two that are pretty advanced but curve and rise are their last two pitches. Rise is better than curve. Rest are young.

Our own Bill Hillhouse @Hillhouse) also says it--

Wanna throw a curve? Learn a rise first. If you can spin a ball backward necessary for the rise, you can spin it sideways for a curve. Then you can combine them for a rising curve. But learning the curve first can really hurt a pitchers' ability to learn a rise. Most curveballs are taught using a turning or twisting of the wrist. And the wrist is a the riseball killer... it's what makes a pitcher get bullet spin. A rise is done by a STRONG elbow whip so the wrist and fingers follow. NOT THE WRIST. The wrist follows the elbow in the kinetic chain of movements.

In a mood, I can't take it anymore... and it started with backdoor curve.

Ok, I'm in Dallas doing lessons. I can't sleep and I've done all my regular things and still am wide awake so I came on here to see what's up. I read the "backdoor curve" thread. OMG... I may never sleep again. I'm about to jump out of my skin. I'm about to go all Donald Trump on...

www.discussfastpitch.com

 

[Tango]

Our own Bill Hillhouse @Hillhouse) also says it--

Wanna throw a curve? Learn a rise first. If you can spin a ball backward necessary for the rise, you can spin it sideways for a curve. Then you can combine them for a rising curve. But learning the curve first can really hurt a pitchers' ability to learn a rise. Most curveballs are taught using a turning or twisting of the wrist. And the wrist is a the riseball killer... it's what makes a pitcher get bullet spin. A rise is done by a STRONG elbow whip so the wrist and fingers follow. NOT THE WRIST. The wrist follows the elbow in the kinetic chain of movements.

In a mood, I can't take it anymore... and it started with backdoor curve.

Ok, I'm in Dallas doing lessons. I can't sleep and I've done all my regular things and still am wide awake so I came on here to see what's up. I read the "backdoor curve" thread. OMG... I may never sleep again. I'm about to jump out of my skin. I'm about to go all Donald Trump on...

www.discussfastpitch.com