So.....Peel or Roll-over....why is one better then the other?

[Rick Pauly]

From my experience; Fastball, Snapover drop, Peel are within a mile per hour of each other; hardly worth any lengthy discussion.....the rollover is typically slower by 1-3 mph. As always, there are exceptions.

I'd be interested in knowing the correlation between the spin and speed of the listed (or any) pitches.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Bump ... should I assume from the lack of a response with a supporting GIF that you withdraw this comment?

The rollover does not have the same whip and the pitcher must get on the side of the ball and push it down.

I believe what would help is if you could provide a video clip supporting this.

 

[Ken B]

The rollover does not have the same whip and the pitcher must get on the side of the ball and push it down.

Not speaking for CoachFP, but throwing out my .02.

When I think of people talking about the rollover, they describe or demo the fingers coming up and over the ball horizontally and perpendicular the target. (Added) As I recall, some even suggest the fingers push down the front of the ball. Instead of a feel/focus of having the hand behind the ball, it's above, or even inside of the ball--palm facing down. sluggers has a perfect demo of this on youtube. Hopefully he can post it.

Although teaching this feel/cue can get a kid to the desired 12/6 spin, I think the reality is that it forces the hand to rotate into the typical peel/FB position at release, and the follow through becomes exagerated. Video of Smith, Osterman and Finch all seem to show this exagerated follow through. Its a common cue, it works and unless someone really cares to take the time to study the difference, it doesn't really matter. I think eventually, as better educational material gets out there, the truths will become more prevalent and maybe the teaching will change some. For now, if a kid develops a useful drop because of a cue, then good for them. I prefer to try the FB with 12/6 spin first--then as needed, try out various cues until we get there.

 

[corlay]

When I think of what people talk about with the rollover, they describe or demo the fingers coming up and over the ball horizontally and perpendicular the target.

For now, if a kid develops a useful drop because of a cue, then good for them.

Ken,

Maybe this cue serves the purpose of getting the right hand/ball position and specific finger pressure just prior to release?

But as demonstrated in your clip,
that ball is *long gone* before Cat starts rolling her hand/arm over.

I'm just thankful that my 10U is entering this sport in an era where she can get *instant* feedback from a slo-mo clip taken from an iphone. Can't imagine what it was like before...

 

[Rocketech1]

To your other question about determining what pitch it was; this info is taken during lessons given by me with tons of trial and error type experimenting. To substantiate the release action I have an instant feedback video setup in my pitching room.....so I can verify what really happened at time of release.

Thanks Rick. The reason I asked how the type of pitch was determined was that the "4 seam fastball" is essentially "peel drop", so what if anything is mechanically different between these two pitches assuming that the spin rate is more or less the same? i could see differences if someone is throwing a bullet spin fastball and a drop ball but a 12/6 spin fastball is a drop ball correct?

 

[Ken B]

Ken,

Maybe this cue serves the purpose of getting the right hand/ball position and specific finger pressure just prior to release?

But as demonstrated in your clip,
that ball is *long gone* before Cat starts rolling her hand arm over.

I'm just thankful that my 10U is entering this sport in an era where she can get *instant* feedback from a slo-mo clip taken from an iphone. Can't imagine what it was like before...

I think you're spot on.

 

[Rick Pauly]

RT, I think you and I are pretty much right on here. My observations are that there are very few differences on how the ball comes off the fingers between a peel and fastball....if there is any difference it is in the middle finger; on a peel the middle finger snaps in a relatively straight line toward home plate; whereas with a fastball the middle finger is very slightly angling toward 1st (RHP) just as the ball comes off the tip.....caused by the more natural I/R of the fastball action.
The snapover drop I mentioned is just a fastball release action (I/R) while ensuring the body posture/release angle/release point are optimal for a dropball. It is very easy to learn.

Thanks Rick. The reason I asked how the type of pitch was determined was that the "4 seam fastball" is essentially "peel drop", so what if anything is mechanically different between these two pitches assuming that the spin rate is more or less the same? i could see differences if someone is throwing a bullet spin fastball and a drop ball but a 12/6 spin fastball is a drop ball correct?

 

[inde53546]

Love some teaching ideas Rick on the snap drop

 

[JUAN GONZALEZ]

here is a video of one of the best softball pitchers. it shows the fast ball, change up, roll-over drop and the rise Angela Tinncher.m4v - YouTube

 

[ArmWhip]

Since this is the pitching forum nobody has brought up the speed-spin(movement) relationship from the point of view of the hitter. We are talking about movement in the vertical plane, drops and rises. Hitters, on a subconscious level, must predict the point of contact for each pitch, this means the mind/brain must calculate how much the pitch will drop on it's way to the plate. Studies have shown that when the hitter overestimates the speed of a pitch (changeup) she will swing over the ball. Since the ball has less velocity than expected it falls more on it's way to the plate. Just the opposite happens when the hitter underestimates the speed of the pitch, she will swing under the ball. Since the ball has more velocity than predicted it will fall less and be higher in the zone than expected. Therefore if a pitchers drop has more velocity than her fastball the spin/movement is working against the mind/brains tendency to predict a lower contact point. If a pitchers riseball is slower than her fastball just the opposite happens, when the mind/brain miscalculates and predicts a higher point of contact the spin will act to keep the ball up in the zone and increase the chance of contact. Ideally to increase effectiveness a pitchers drop should be slower than her fastball and her rise should be faster than her fastball.