Roll Over Drop/Drop Curve

[Rick Pauly]

RB
I wouldn't disagree with your math and I am guessing you were only referring to ball plane/bat plane. So that beginning pitchers don't read and misinterpret the sequence, the riseball takes a certain amount of speed to be effective so the drop/crop might jump over the rise in the learning sequence until a certain level of pitch speed is attained.

Righty to righty and lefty to lefty the Crop is breaking "on the bat plane" (maybe not exactly on bat plane but pretty much in that same direction - easier to hit - from my perspective). Of course lefty batters struggle more with lefty croppers because they don't see that many of them. My opinion is that a spin pitch should break away from the bat plane to the largest angular degree. AND it should break away from the bat plane more towards the handle than the end of the bat (so for a righty-on-righty that means a screw can be a more effective pitch than a crop).That's why, from my opinion drop balls, off speed pitches that have more angular drop, and the riseball, are the most effective pitches. (This perspective again is for the most common Righty-to-righty scenario).

So from my little mathematical head a RHP should take this pitch learning sequence:
1. Fast
2. Change
3. Rise - ONLY if they exhibit the rare capability to actually throw one (I would estimate 95% can't)
4. Drop
5. Screw (by the time this pitch comes around the Change & Drop have merged into one pitch - Offspeed peel drop)

LHP:
1. Fast
2. Change
3. Rise - ONLY if they exhibit the rare capability to actually throw one (I would estimate 95% can't)
4. Crop

 

[Rick Pauly]

RB
Your comment on the riseball "Only if they exhibit the rare capability to actually throw one (I would estimate 95% can't)

Just returned from one of the largest/best 18G travel ball tourneys on the east coast....your words are very accurate. Lots of pitchers attempting riseballs, but few really had the spin axis figured out. Those that did were very successful with their rise.....hitters just don't face a lot of good riseballs so it really takes some adjusting to hit it or recognize when it will be out of the zone.

When you look at the release action required to spin the ball backwards (horizontal axis) it is easy to understand why it is such a difficult pitch to master. Biomechanically the arm/wrist just aren't designed to make this movement naturally.

For someone who has thrown dropping type pitches the first 2-3 years of their career it becomes very difficult to achieve a rise action type release.

As a tip to pitchers who desire some day to throw a riseball.......start at an early stage in your career learning to just spin a ball backwards and then how to spin it backwards while holding a "slicing" action into release starting with your arm at 8 o'clock ........however, don't in your wildest imagination think you should be able to do this from the mound at full speed. I am just saying don't wait until you've thrown 8 million dropping action pitches before you try to spin the ball backwards.

Righty to righty and lefty to lefty the Crop is breaking "on the bat plane" (maybe not exactly on bat plane but pretty much in that same direction - easier to hit - from my perspective). Of course lefty batters struggle more with lefty croppers because they don't see that many of them. My opinion is that a spin pitch should break away from the bat plane to the largest angular degree. AND it should break away from the bat plane more towards the handle than the end of the bat (so for a righty-on-righty that means a screw can be a more effective pitch than a crop).That's why, from my opinion drop balls, off speed pitches that have more angular drop, and the riseball, are the most effective pitches. (This perspective again is for the most common Righty-to-righty scenario).

So from my little mathematical head a RHP should take this pitch learning sequence:
1. Fast
2. Change
3. Rise - ONLY if they exhibit the rare capability to actually throw one (I would estimate 95% can't)
4. Drop
5. Screw (by the time this pitch comes around the Change & Drop have merged into one pitch - Offspeed peel drop)

LHP:
1. Fast
2. Change
3. Rise - ONLY if they exhibit the rare capability to actually throw one (I would estimate 95% can't)
4. Crop

 

[CoachFP]

If you can throw a palm up curve ball the rise ball is thrown by making an adjustment to that pitch. Can be a straightforward transition.

 

[FrozenRope]

We had travel practice last night...I worked with catchers and infield while the other coach worked with pitchers in the tunnel. Afterwards he came out and told me that my DD's Drop Curve was deadly after a slight mod. He said he couldnt help but think she was coming across and closing too hard...throwing everything out of whack. Gave her a stride foot target to hit about 4-6 inches beyond her normal stride and told her to get her nose over that front foot. That kept her from closing too hard as she wasn't able to. Said it was instant....8 out of 10..low and away on the black. Said there was no curve...but it sure as heck dropped. Make sense? I always thought the drop was a shorter step....or is that just the peel?

 

[starsnuffer]

Adjusting the step length for the drop is a band-aid applied to a symptom, it isn't an absolute and it isn't a solution. It sounds like you figured out that a drop ball is much more useful then a drop curve.

-W

 

[Rocketech1]

As a tip to pitchers who desire some day to throw a riseball.......start at an early stage in your career learning to just spin a ball backwards and then how to spin it backwards while holding a "slicing" action into release starting with your arm at 8 o'clock ........however, don't in your wildest imagination think you should be able to do this from the mound at full speed. I am just saying don't wait until you've thrown 8 million dropping action pitches before you try to spin the ball backwards.

Sounds like great advice, get them spinning the ball backwards as young as possible even if they won't be using the full mechanics for some time. With that said, I have seen 10 & 11YOs throw a "rise ball" and while they mostly have side-spin or 4/10 spin and don't "rise", they can still be effective at the 10U & 12U level since batters at this age have a hard time hitting a ball high in the strike zone. The conventional wisdom is not to throw a rise ball until you are 13 or 14 and are throwing 50+, but I can see some benefits to learning the pitch a little earlier since its the hardest pitch to learn and throw consistently.

Anyone have any experience with using the two ball device to help achieve good, consistent backspin? Hillhouse is a big proponent of this.

 

[JJsqueeze]

RB
....however, don't in your wildest imagination think you should be able to do this from the mound at full speed. I am just saying don't wait until you've thrown 8 million dropping action pitches before you try to spin the ball backwards.

My PC just started DD on a screwball and her reasoning was that she wants to get her spinning from the inside and then from the bottom before she gets too used to only spinning with releases that are on top of the ball. It made perfect sense to me but hearing similar advice from you cements it for me. We are treating it more as spin and hand positioning training that actually trying to develop a game ready pitch right now. Forgive the screwball talk, but I view the two pitches as close relatives, (DD Turned 11 in July). one anecdote that I thought was pretty cool--we were doing our end of practice game, DD needs to strike three girls out, and she had a 1-2 count and threw a screwball for strike three. I noticed the screw but figured it was just another one of her accidental movement pitches (btw am I the only one that notices accidental curves/drops/screws in their young DD?)...then DD said..."struck her out with a screwball"...I challenged her to do it again and she couldn't but I believe that one was intentional. From what I saw on that pitch from the bucket, I am less of a screwball doubter. That would have ben a hard pitch to hit for a girl her age.

 

[Perfect Circle]

We play that game too... DD last batter is always Bustos

 

[FrozenRope]

My PC just started DD on a screwball and her reasoning was that she wants to get her spinning from the inside and then from the bottom before she gets too used to only spinning with releases that are on top of the ball. It made perfect sense to me but hearing similar advice from you cements it for me. We are treating it more as spin and hand positioning training that actually trying to develop a game ready pitch right now. Forgive the screwball talk, but I view the two pitches as close relatives, (DD Turned 11 in July). one anecdote that I thought was pretty cool--we were doing our end of practice game, DD needs to strike three girls out, and she had a 1-2 count and threw a screwball for strike three. I noticed the screw but figured it was just another one of her accidental movement pitches (btw am I the only one that notices accidental curves/drops/screws in their young DD?)...then DD said..."struck her out with a screwball"...I challenged her to do it again and she couldn't but I believe that one was intentional. From what I saw on that pitch from the bucket, I am less of a screwball doubter. That would have ben a hard pitch to hit for a girl her age.

Is there any truth to the claim that the Screwball puts too much stress on the elbow for young girls?

 

[JJsqueeze]

Is there any truth to the claim that the Screwball puts too much stress on the elbow for young girls?

I have no idea. The way the PC was showing her, she had more finger action than wrist action on it. She would correct DD if she got too wristy, she was really focusing on almost a drumming action with the fingers (like if you are drumming your fingers on a table in sequence from pinky to index all firing one after the other) with a slight but sudden wrist turn. I don't see this action as in any way harmful. I know that some of the older pitchers I have seen have a pretty violent screwball hand action but she wasn't really going that direction.