Roll Over Drop/Drop Curve

[joemcq51]

Joe, those are fantastic spin rates....how old is your daughter? They're off the chart for High School, and middle of the pack for college.

FR- Thanks- She is a freshman in HS. She works extremely hard and spinning the ball is something we spend a lot of time on.

 

[starsnuffer]

Yes, the rollover is typically a bit slower then a fastball. The lever is shorter with the rollover, since you're basically eliminating finger length from the equation.

-W

 

[javasource]

JS, is it typical for the roll-over to be a few mph off from the FB? Seems logical to me given the nature of the release. And that slight change in speed itself would have value.

Yeah, usually.. but not always. It's most evidenced/influenced by hand/finger position at release... and the prevalence of i/r in the entire arm, as opposed to just the forearm. The 'not always' part depends on the pitcher and their i/r mechanics. If they are off, younger pitchers can actually show more speed, as the increased i/r and finger pressure, transfer to better speed. The key to any movement pitch is dexterity in the fingers... and IMO, larger hands can really help with spin rate. A lot of people experiment with grips, and I think that is a good thing... as every once in awhile they find a grip that gives them better spin. Usually, that's due in part to the fact that the new grip has less palm in contact, and it allows the last finger in contact the most influence.

I agree there is value in the off-speed nature... as the horizontal forces are lessened. At only 40-43 feet, too much velocity is hard to overcome by simple drag. This is why some change-ups are lethal and are marked with a great drop, too.

Lastly, the movement is never sudden, it's a gradual thing that increases with distance... and as such, the release angle/position is paramount to attaining the best appearance of movement. Because the acting natural forces are usually close to constant (very generalized statement, I know...), the release angle of any movement pitch helps a lot. The amount of drag that a pitcher can add by spin, is not nearly as impacting, IMO. So, posture at release, will allow a release point that is typically higher for this pitch.... lower for a rise, etc..

 

[Ken B]

Has anyone ever broken down a slow motion clip of Ricketts' crop? I'd be interested in seeing her release mechanics being explained in detail.

Yup. Very eye opening: http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/14585-crop.html

 

[Rich Balswick]

Rick

After saying thanks to your post, I don't know where to start. I agree with most everything you're saying big time: but I think I'm looking for more definition. First, I don't know how we can talk about ball movement without addressing the axis of spin. Secondly, I don't know how you can make a judgement that all "trained spins" tend to result in lower spin rates, and if so, what good is a higher spin rate from a natural release if it results in a compromised spin axis? I had a student come to see me some time ago that was very proud of her spin speeds that her former coach was measuring with the Rev Fire and when I got thru analyzing what she was doing, I pretty much trashed her perception of effectiveness because I quickly discovered she didn't have the slightest clue how to spin the ball effectively ( improper axis) nor did she understand your well expressed understanding of launch angles or spine tilt etc.. Of course being the spin freak that I am, I began teaching her how to spin the ball ( after I tried to rebuild her self-esteem being the sensitive guy that I am); so if training her to spin the ball causes slower spin speeds etc.(as you said in a well intended way), what should I be doing?
( I'm asking this in a kind of tongue in cheek way because I"m confident you can clarify very effectively!) I'm looking forward to you response.

 

[smddad]

Lastly, the movement is never sudden, it's a gradual thing that increases with distance...

This is true. However, the brain is a very weird creature. It knows how the ball should react. So much so, that it will create the path that the all is supposed to go. The eyes then see something different and when the brain realizes that things aren't jiving, it corrects them. This is the "jump" that we often see from behind the plate. Most often it occurs with the riseball that so many people say jumps up at the last second.

When we view these pitches on slow motion video from a side angle there is no rise, there is no jump. I really don't care that there isn't, because the batter sees it, or more correctly perceives to see it. It's the same with rise balls that seem to fall off the map as they reach the plate.

Not only are we dealing with physics....we are dealing with the bleeped up brain.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Not only are we dealing with physics....we are dealing with the bleeped up brain.

I agree that the inpatient brain or (lens) can be (bleeped ???) so I subscribe to the stomach as being the source of thought & direction. I think the issue is resenting conformity.... For the individualist (used to be able to just say an American), once they see that they risk losing individual identity, by being "just the DD" of a follower of just the presets of the famous, be it a ....technique,school of thought, artist, and even an athlete....ect.

The Axis was clearly defined by "the X-Pitcher" & it was unfortunate that he had to blast in and out of here to deliver his message. Maybe he'll return as "X-Pitcher Lite" or maybe it was just all he cared to share...."the Lesson"

My frontier is the dynamic of coil... & it being absent in only Fastpitch pitching ??? So as to complete the trinity...so to speak.

 

[chinamigarden]

I don't see the whole bat stays on plane with the drop curve. I catch my dds drop curve and when thrown right it is not on the same plane as any batter I see. Rickets dominates lefty batters with her crop. If the whole stays on plane theory works righty-righty wouldn't it go lefty - lefty as well?

 

[Rich Balswick]

Ball movement

This is true. However, the brain is a very weird creature. It knows how the ball should react. So much so, that it will create the path that the all is supposed to go. The eyes then see something different and when the brain realizes that things aren't jiving, it corrects them. This is the "jump" that we often see from behind the plate. Most often it occurs with the riseball that so many people say jumps up at the last second.

When we view these pitches on slow motion video from a side angle there is no rise, there is no jump. I really don't care that there isn't, because the batter sees it, or more correctly perceives to see it. It's the same with rise balls that seem to fall off the map as they reach the plate.

Not only are we dealing with physics....we are dealing with the bleeped up brain.

The whole idea of North/South movement on a ball is to create difficulty for a batter's eyes to accurately guesstimate where the ball is going to be in the hitting area. When you say that the "jump" on the ball is an illusion, I beg to differ with you. When a pitch is released effectively, there's no question that the hitter's brain is going to have a hard time figuring out how to square up with the ball; but I would not describe it as an "illusion". When a true drop or rise is released based on conformance to the laws the laws of physics, the ball will truly not be where the hitter thinks it should be very easily. When a ball stays basically on the same trajectory (because it hasn't been released effectively) from the pitcher's hand all the way to the catcher's glove, it becomes significantly easier for the hitter to square up to the ball. A rise ball if thrown effectively will not "fall off the map" as you have said because we are dealing with the true reality of physics and not a coach's opinion. (I hope that was not unkind!!). Much of what is being described as a rise and drop by a huge percentage of our softball community is neither- and if that comes across as arrogant, I'm sorry! So when some people say that "the pitch is being thrown threw its break" they are blind to how the ball needs to be released for this not to happen. I will stop here- I hope I haven't said too much!

 

[RubberBiscuit]

I don't see the whole bat stays on plane with the drop curve. I catch my dds drop curve and when thrown right it is not on the same plane as any batter I see. Rickets dominates lefty batters with her crop. If the whole stays on plane theory works righty-righty wouldn't it go lefty - lefty as well?

Righty to righty and lefty to lefty the Crop is breaking "on the bat plane" (maybe not exactly on bat plane but pretty much in that same direction - easier to hit - from my perspective). Of course lefty batters struggle more with lefty croppers because they don't see that many of them. My opinion is that a spin pitch should break away from the bat plane to the largest angular degree. AND it should break away from the bat plane more towards the handle than the end of the bat (so for a righty-on-righty that means a screw can be a more effective pitch than a crop).That's why, from my opinion drop balls, off speed pitches that have more angular drop, and the riseball, are the most effective pitches. (This perspective again is for the most common Righty-to-righty scenario).

So from my little mathematical head a RHP should take this pitch learning sequence:
1. Fast
2. Change
3. Rise - ONLY if they exhibit the rare capability to actually throw one (I would estimate 95% can't)
4. Drop
5. Screw (by the time this pitch comes around the Change & Drop have merged into one pitch - Offspeed peel drop)

LHP:
1. Fast
2. Change
3. Rise - ONLY if they exhibit the rare capability to actually throw one (I would estimate 95% can't)
4. Crop