how should changeup cross the plate

[bmakj]

...at 12U a 32 mph changeup is hitting the dirt.

I know when we did machine pitch in rec a few years ago for some games or portion of games (think it was technically 10u, but most girls were 7-8-9), we set machine at 35, pitch had virtually no arc to it (did tend downwards a bit, but not on arc, down drom beginning). Seems these pitchers changeup at 12u is more in the high 30s/low 40s, so it is not inevitable it hits the dirt

 

[Rick M]

Agreed. Change this pitch to "drop-ball" or "curve-ball" and it's just silly to say that any pitch that consistently hits the plate would be effective (for reasons others have mentioned).

As others pointed out it this all depends on age and speed but it defiantly shouldn't be a goal as a pitcher.

DD is 12U and has a very effective CU. She's had success bouncing it in front of the plate (producing a swing & miss) as well as throwing it above the hands and getting a called strike when the ball drops into the zone. I'd like to lie and say she does these things intentionally, but the unpredictability of her change adds to her effectiveness. Yeah... I'm going with that .

The primary reason for throwing a changeup is simple -- to disrupt the hitter's timing. Count and situation may dictate whether you're throwing it for a strike or just to show it, but no pitch should be so predictable that you could apply a rule like "it always hits the plate."

As far as the PB vs WP discussion, when I'm doing GameChanger for the team I follow a pretty simple rule: if the ball makes contact with the glove or the catcher's body and still gets away, it's a passed ball. Everything else is a wild pitch.

 

[MNDad]

I guess we don’t know any of the same people, then. I know a pitcher’s mom who used to keep score for the team, and there wasn’t a single wild pitch thrown all season. There were dozens of passed balls, though. Even pitches that Aubrey Munro couldn’t have stopped we’re scored as passed balls. I also knew a catcher’s mom who would NEVER charge her DD with a PB, even if it was a called strike and hit her right in the mitt. Now, these moms are extreme examples, but brother they are out there.

We will philosophically disagree about whether or not blocking is ordinary effort, and I think therein lies the difference in how people score games with regard to WP vs PB. Where I’m coming from is based on the difference between basics and fundamentals. I believe that basics are easy and fundamentals are hard. I believe that ordinary effort is easy and extraordinary effort is hard. Basics are the single most rudimentary part of the game, while fundamentals are more difficult but still must be mastered in order to have success in the game. Keeping the focus on catchers, basics include squatting without falling over, a proper distance behind the plate so that the bat won’t hit the catchers mitt and draw a CI call, and catching with one hand. Fundamentals include framing, blocking, situational awareness, pitch calling, and making strong accurate throws to pick off base runners. Fundamentals are hard and do not fall under the category of ordinary effort. Some people might even assess that any pitch that causes a catcher to not be in a squat position would immediately be deemed as extraordinary effort. I know that not everyone would agree with my assessment, and every one of the things I listed should be mastered by the time a catcher gets as old as my DD, but that doesn’t make them easy.


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I guess I did know a set of pitcher parents like that. I try to forget about people like that.

I’m guessing our philosophical differences come with the ages of our kids. At younger ages fundamentals are still hard. By the time they’re in college fundamentals aren’t enough.

I am going to start to try to keep track of PB/WP just on my own reckoning, just to try and track improvement, and also which Ps throw more WP, and as best I can reckon what pitch it was (CU, drop, FB). got scoring question related to this, if there are no runners on, technically there can be neither PB or WP, correct (I will still track though )?

I try to be as objective as possible (DD and DW would say I am overly critical of both DDs, probably right). She does need to block better, but at same time, when the coach is asking the pitchers to throw 50%+ of the pitches to hit he plate or dirt, she gets a little exasperated.

That’s correct if there aren’t any runners on you can’t have a WP or PB, except on third strike.

I don’t think WP are a good measure of a pitchers effectiveness. As an example, Paige Lowary had close to as many WP’s as our whole team (14-19).

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I collect a good number of strikeouts by throwing a CU during an at-bat low in the zone immediately following a drop/fb low in the zone ... often the CU bounces off of the plate or even just in front of the plate. The goal is to have the initial trajectory look identical to the prior pitch.

It's an effective pitch. It is pleasing from a pitcher's perspective .

 

[bmakj]

I don’t think WP are a good measure of a pitchers effectiveness. As an example, Paige Lowary had close to as many WP’s as our whole team (14-19).

not trying to measure Ps "effectiveness", just which ones are throwing more WP, lot of dynamics going on here, just want to get a handle on frequency of WP and PB for each P/C combination. wish i had ability to do this and score game on GC, only paperbook being used, and I think current coach is using only eye test for judging ... well pretty much everything (ie effectiveness of Ps, Cs, batters, fielders, etc.). i want to start to see what numbers say

 

[julray]

Effective change up is low and often in the dirt IMO.. looks like fast ball, behaves like a fast ball, and then the bottom drops out of it. Outside corner and low.. very effective.

 

[bmakj]

Effective change up is low and often in the dirt IMO.. looks like fast ball, behaves like a fast ball, and then the bottom drops out of it. Outside corner and low.. very effective.

I thought this was a drop ball?

 

[julray]

I thought this was a drop ball?

Yes I guess I did write all the characteristics of a drop ball, and IMO it does behave something like a drop ball because I believe the low change up is effective, high change up is asking for trouble. Of course there is a change of pace on a change up.. sorry I just assumed that was mentioned already

Also quoting FFS above....

"I collect a good number of strikeouts by throwing a CU during an at-bat low in the zone immediately following a drop/fb low in the zone ... often the CU bounces off of the plate or even just in front of the plate. The goal is to have the initial trajectory look identical to the prior pitch.

It's an effective pitch. It is pleasing from a pitcher's perspective ."

 

[julray]

I know when we did machine pitch in rec a few years ago for some games or portion of games (think it was technically 10u, but most girls were 7-8-9), we set machine at 35, pitch had virtually no arc to it (did tend downwards a bit, but not on arc, down drom beginning). Seems these pitchers changeup at 12u is more in the high 30s/low 40s, so it is not inevitable it hits the dirt

Machine is a complete different story.. generally a machine will spit out a ball with backspin, so ball tends to float. I know some throw a modification of a knuckle ball type change up which can float or dip, but generally speaking the most effective change up I've seen does spiral downward because of reduced velocity and spin

 

[DILLIGAF]

With a swing and a miss