For Umpires- Does how the catcher set up and/or physically catch the ball influence your ball and strike call?

[radness]

To utilize an example of glove work.
At the beginning of this video can see turning glove behind the ball. Then goes into further dirt pitch recovery. Can see dirt pitch recovery from a catching stance with glove work that holds the pitch for a moment and yes wonderful strikes can be made.
( this is more of a defensive glove work training, than framing)

This is effective for that drop coming down low or a change-up going down low where can get right behind it and underneath it before it hits the dirt. Yes even when the ball bounces there are times catchers will get strikes on some of these.



Can see the quickness of the glove turning to get behind the ball.
These are dirt pitches the catcher is fielding. Can see for a moment where the glove would be presenting a pitch.
just befor transitioning quickly.

This is pocket behind the ball coming into it.
Not palm up.
Even a pitch that is really heading down at a 70 degree angle or more can get our palm/glove underneath it.
(which might be Palm up) because that is the trajectory of the ball like it would be a pop-up someone was diving for.

 

[Agcy]

✔

*The trajectory and Arc and height of the pitch are very relevant on how to receive the pitch. Especially when pitches are already below the strike zone and heading towards the dirt.
( like change ups and drops at any level)

* because the catcher is responsible for receiving pitches but also responsible for being a defensive player we have to be prepared for both. Chasing a very low pitch with palm facing the dirt that is going into the dirt is going to cause trouble and problems and errors.
Florida catcher proved chasing pitch palm going down into the dirt (low like at the ankle level) with palm into the dirt can cause havoc. Florida catcher had examples of that (several of them.) Passed balls in College World Series that set up scoring position for u c l a.

* because with palm facing the dirt there is NO pocket facing the ball!

* Better to turn glove around so that the pocket is facing the pitcher and important facing the ball!

Good points. Obviously, if a pitch is headed for the dirt, get palm up and ready to block if needed, but ,FWIW, my daughters have worked on catching low balls (below the strike zone) palm down (just like a high pitch) or sideways; it's not that hard to do effectively with some practice. Some coaches don't appreciate it, "when it's that low, framing doesn't matter", but some coaches do.

 

[radness]

Good points. Obviously, if a pitch is headed for the dirt, get palm up and ready to block if needed, but ,FWIW, my daughters have worked on catching low balls (below the strike zone) palm down (just like a high pitch) or sideways; it's not that hard to do effectively with some practice. Some coaches don't appreciate it, "when it's that low, framing doesn't matter", but some coaches do.

Definitely a pitch that is coming in hard that is staying parallel to the ground and low is different than a pitch that is trajectory down.

Hard low pitch parallel to the ground prefer pocket faces the pitcher and the ball!

 

[marriard]

Any explanations for this? With all the training of calling the pitch as it crosses the plate only you think we would see framing really inconsequential.

How do you subconsciously influence an umpire? It must be happening to me but I don't realize it? I certainly realize great catchers are framing and attempting to extend the zone. Somebody has the answer. It is the color of their wristbands? lol

2 things.

- College catchers RARELY drop a ball around or near the strike zone. No surprise there.
- 'Poorly framed' pitches at this level are more often than not balls. Balls that look well framed are often already strikes - and straightforward catches.


And lastly - the camera angles don't help on TV.

 

[marriard]

Self preservation is human nature right? - for example - We had a strike called yesterday on a low change up where the catcher dropped to both knees to try and block the pitch, except the pitch didn’t bounce and instead crossed the plate around the bottom of the strike zone. In all honesty it was probably a strike.

But…If the umpire calls it a ball no one complains because the catcher made it look awful by dropping to block it. If he calls it a strike he is going to hear it from quite a few folks because the way the catcher caught it. A lot of umpires won’t give the catcher the strike on a pitch where they catch it poorly (reach across the body, turn glove upside down, drag ball out of zone) because it looks so bad and they are gonna catch crap for it.

Yes, mentioned this happening in a previous post and the reasons why.

The best umpires call it a strike if it was a strike no matter what the crowd thinks. Making these calls is why they are the best.

 

[EdLovrich]

The best umpires call it a strike if it was a strike no matter what the crowd thinks. Making these calls is why they are the best.

And if it was a strike that was dropped, the umpire will have a word or two for the catcher about having to make that catch the next time. Quietly, of course.

 

[kennykozman!!]

I've got 2 catcher daughters - one high school one D2 college and have been umping for a year now.

As a catcher's dad - I believe (know) that some officials are susceptible to framing. My daughters even try different styles in a game to see if it works. Typically, they setup on the corner and reach out towards the pitcher as far as they can to catch the ball, before it breaks too far, and then fold their glove over trying to give the ump the best view of where the ball ended up. Sometimes they adjust how far they move side-to-side to setup for the pitch - sometimes that works. The latest technique is to funnel the ball to your chest - I am not a fan, but it is gaining popularity and there are even MLB stats to 'prove' the value of the catcher.

As an Ump, I usually look for the ball over the plate and not where it ends up.
1. If I see the glove palm up, it is easy to assume a ball. With good pitcher/catchers - it usually is. But with younger and slower pitchers - might not be the case.
2. anything that blocks my vision is TOUGH. If the catcher is doing that, they are not helping their pitcher at all. If I can't see it, it is a guess. If it's a guess and the catcher stood up - it's a ball. (Some hitter's hands also get in the way...)
3. It might. I've asked some younger catcher's coaches to have them move up because all calls get harder the farther away from the plate you are.
4. No. If they setup off the plate, I see that and know that if it is caught straight on, it will be a ball. I will say that pitchers sometimes miss the called location and/or miss their spot. If a catcher sets up on the corner (like they should) and the pitcher hits the other corner - that is a hard call (and easy to call a ball)!
5. Dropped pitches don't affect my opinion.
6. I can guarantee you that catchers that catch 'through' the ball (IE don't stick it and let their glove continue outside the strike zone) will lose the call on many pitches on the edge!

In general, as a dad, I want my daughters to frame and setup on the corner as much as possible. I think it affects some up umpires and I think it helps the confidence of their pitcher. Also, it helps to impress coaches.

When I started umpiring, I was surprised how little attention I actually payed to the catcher's framing. BUT, if they are sticking every pitch, they do have the ability to hold the stick for a few moments to communicate to me that they thought it was a strike (food for thought).

Thanks another great point on catchers sticking each pitch. That is another way to influence ball and strikes.

 

[CoachJD]

Definitely a pitch that is coming in hard that is staying parallel to the ground and low is different than a pitch that is trajectory down.

Hard low pitch parallel to the ground prefer pocket faces the pitcher and the ball!

I'm not sure if you've talked about what I think is a fairly new catching approach -- not sure I'd call it a style -- where catchers are taught to start low and bring the glove up to catch the ball. Pretty sure it started in MLB, and it's supposed to help get those low strikes. A lot of catchers will even start on one knee (the Oklahoma St catcher is doing it as I type this) to get lower.

If you're starting that low, wouldn't catching the ball the "regular" (fingers up) way work? Especially if you're working the glove upward toward the lower part of the zone. Obviously not talking dirt balls, but pretty much anything from shins up, I'd think. Maybe even a bit lower.

 

[CoachJD]

And if it was a strike that was dropped, the umpire will have a word or two for the catcher about having to make that catch the next time. Quietly, of course.

FWIW, I've never argued or seen an opposing coach argue (or something much less than "argue" even) that a pitch couldn't be a strike merely because the catcher dropped it.

I have grumbled to myself on strike calls when the catcher dives halfway into the batter's box to catch it, which I realize is not a guaranteed case of a bad call, but a catcher just dropping a ball has never made me think it had to be a ball. The logic there doesn't even make much sense.

 

[nikkilugi]

Saw this tweet and immediately thought of this thread (and a few other ump threads).