For Umpires- Does how the catcher set up and/or physically catch the ball influence your ball and strike call?

[radness]

I can't honestly say I have or have not been influenced by framing. I hope I have not. My training teaches me to call the pitch based on where it is when it crosses the front of the plate, not where the catcher catches or attempts to frame the pitch.

Refreshing honesty!

 

[CoachJD]

I have seen it in writing here (DFP) and other forums that almost Every Ump admits that the catcher influences strike/ball calls.

Even saying this sentence ... "Catcher doesn't make it a strike/ball but when they do (this) they aren't getting the strike".

Crazy.

I think admitting there's influence is good because we all know it happens to the very best. I think saying you're purposefully making certain calls based on what a catcher does is bad (again, excepting for a catcher who makes it more difficult to actually see the pitch).

 

[kennykozman!!]

I will add one more thing.

You are also taught not to call ball/strike verbally until the ball hits the catcher's glove. This makes sense because the batter can always swing/do something/gets hit, etc, etc... And you look an idiot if you say 'strike' right as the batter hits the ball.

However I think this timing does make the non-umpires over value what the catcher is doing.

Thanks for all the input! This is great stuff for umpires of all levels. We are all trying to help the game.

Interesting on the timing of calling pitches until after it hits the glove. Lots of etc..etc...

I haven't seen any marginal pitch that was dropped or poorly framed called a strike in this years NCAA tournament yet. A great catcher gets more favorable calls. The best framers get more strikes right?

I think every umpire knows consciously every catcher, coach and manager are attempting to influence their calls. It is a great game!

 

[kennykozman!!]

I haven't seen any marginal pitch that was dropped or poorly framed called a strike in this years NCAA tournament yet

Any explanations for this? With all the training of calling the pitch as it crosses the plate only you think we would see framing really inconsequential.

How do you subconsciously influence an umpire? It must be happening to me but I don't realize it? I certainly realize great catchers are framing and attempting to extend the zone. Somebody has the answer. It is the color of their wristbands? lol

 

[radness]

I have seen it in writing here (DFP) and other forums that almost Every Ump admits that the catcher influences strike/ball calls.

Even saying this sentence ... "Catcher doesn't make it a strike/ball but when they do (this) they aren't getting the strike".

Crazy.

And the (this) can be different from umpire to umpire.

 

[Towny9]

Self preservation is human nature right? - for example - We had a strike called yesterday on a low change up where the catcher dropped to both knees to try and block the pitch, except the pitch didn’t bounce and instead crossed the plate around the bottom of the strike zone. In all honesty it was probably a strike.

But…If the umpire calls it a ball no one complains because the catcher made it look awful by dropping to block it. If he calls it a strike he is going to hear it from quite a few folks because the way the catcher caught it. A lot of umpires won’t give the catcher the strike on a pitch where they catch it poorly (reach across the body, turn glove upside down, drag ball out of zone) because it looks so bad and they are gonna catch crap for it.

 

[justAdad2]

My DD is a pitcher and has been for 8yrs now. how well she pitches in a game is heavily influenced on how good the catcher is at framing and blocking. i have seen some umpires ignore the catcher framing the ball, but its rare. the pitcher and catcher by far have the most important role equally on the defense.

 

[Mike Hurd]

The strike zone is 3 dimensional. sheeesh

Which has nothing to do with how I call or have been taught to call balls and strikes.

 

[Agcy]

There has been a great discussion on framing and how it related to getting more strikes called.

My questions to everyone but specifically umpires is:

1. If the catcher grabs a low pitch palms up have you been trained to call this a ball? If they frame by turning their wrist and get the glove on top are you more likely to call a strike? Or does it have no bearing on your call.

2. When the catcher stands up out of the crouch early on any pitch and possible blocks you view? Does this influence your calls?

3. In younger games if the catcher is set up too far behind the dish and balls close the knees are hitting the dirt before the catch? Any influence here or are you calling strikes with pitches in the dirt?

4. The catcher sets up outside in the river and the pitcher sticks the glove - are you influenced and call it a strike even though its off the plate?

5. Finally the marginal pitch dropped by the catcher. Does the drop have influence?

Many items NOT in the rulebook here. My mentors have always stressed staying out of trouble and that includes calling marginal low palm up pitches balls, any pitch in the dirt a ball, most pitches that a catcher comes out of the crouch a ball, giving pitches off the plate when the catchers glove does not move and finally calling dropped pitches balls with the exception of right down the middle.

This is an honest real conversation and part of the game.

Few coaches argue a called ball in the dirt, a dropped pitch or a pitch right to the glove. End an inning with a strike call in the dirt and see where that gets you.

Any words of wisdom or other catcher's actions that may influence your zone??

I've got 2 catcher daughters - one high school one D2 college and have been umping for a year now.

As a catcher's dad - I believe (know) that some officials are susceptible to framing. My daughters even try different styles in a game to see if it works. Typically, they setup on the corner and reach out towards the pitcher as far as they can to catch the ball, before it breaks too far, and then fold their glove over trying to give the ump the best view of where the ball ended up. Sometimes they adjust how far they move side-to-side to setup for the pitch - sometimes that works. The latest technique is to funnel the ball to your chest - I am not a fan, but it is gaining popularity and there are even MLB stats to 'prove' the value of the catcher.

As an Ump, I usually look for the ball over the plate and not where it ends up.
1. If I see the glove palm up, it is easy to assume a ball. With good pitcher/catchers - it usually is. But with younger and slower pitchers - might not be the case.
2. anything that blocks my vision is TOUGH. If the catcher is doing that, they are not helping their pitcher at all. If I can't see it, it is a guess. If it's a guess and the catcher stood up - it's a ball. (Some hitter's hands also get in the way...)
3. It might. I've asked some younger catcher's coaches to have them move up because all calls get harder the farther away from the plate you are.
4. No. If they setup off the plate, I see that and know that if it is caught straight on, it will be a ball. I will say that pitchers sometimes miss the called location and/or miss their spot. If a catcher sets up on the corner (like they should) and the pitcher hits the other corner - that is a hard call (and easy to call a ball)!
5. Dropped pitches don't affect my opinion.
6. I can guarantee you that catchers that catch 'through' the ball (IE don't stick it and let their glove continue outside the strike zone) will lose the call on many pitches on the edge!

In general, as a dad, I want my daughters to frame and setup on the corner as much as possible. I think it affects some up umpires and I think it helps the confidence of their pitcher. Also, it helps to impress coaches.

When I started umpiring, I was surprised how little attention I actually payed to the catcher's framing. BUT, if they are sticking every pitch, they do have the ability to hold the stick for a few moments to communicate to me that they thought it was a strike (food for thought).

 

[radness]

I've got 2 catcher daughters - one high school one D2 college and have been umping for a year now.


As an Ump, I usually look for the ball over the plate and not where it ends up.

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1. If I see the glove palm up, it is easy to assume a ball. With good pitcher/catchers - it usually is. But with younger and slower pitchers - might not be the case.

*The trajectory and Arc and height of the pitch are very relevant on how to receive the pitch. Especially when pitches are already below the strike zone and heading towards the dirt.
( like change ups and drops at any level)

* because the catcher is responsible for receiving pitches but also responsible for being a defensive player we have to be prepared for both. Chasing a very low pitch with palm facing the dirt that is going into the dirt is going to cause trouble and problems and errors.
Florida catcher proved chasing pitch palm going down into the dirt (low like at the ankle level) with palm into the dirt can cause havoc. Florida catcher had examples of that (several of them.) Passed balls in College World Series that set up scoring position for u c l a.

* because with palm facing the dirt there is NO pocket facing the ball!

* Better to turn glove around so that the pocket is facing the pitcher and important facing the ball!