For Umpires- Does how the catcher set up and/or physically catch the ball influence your ball and strike call?

[radness]

I'm not sure if you've talked about what I think is a fairly new catching approach -- not sure I'd call it a style -- where catchers are taught to start low and bring the glove up to catch the ball. Pretty sure it started in MLB, and it's supposed to help get those low strikes. A lot of catchers will even start on one knee (the Oklahoma St catcher is doing it as I type this) to get lower.

Starting with glove low is not new.

If you're starting that low, wouldn't catching the ball the "regular" (fingers up) way work? Especially if you're working the glove upward toward the lower part of the zone. Obviously not talking dirt balls, but pretty much anything from shins up, I'd think. Maybe even a bit lower.

That would be on a direct hard parallel to the ground pitch. With extremely slight variance in Pitch trajectory.
(AKA arc of the ball not dropping)
Basically
*The pocket of the glove should always be facing the trajectory of the ball.
Low would be fine.

But starting with a low low glove
(at the ankles) would mean also possibly catching a ball and raising the arm to produce it into the strike zone. Which is a greater movement visually impacting what the catcher is doing because the arm itself is moving and not just the subtlety of the arm rotating wrist turning/framing.

 

[radness]

Another thing to consider is tenths of a second a catcher needs to react to where the pitch is actually going.
Glove starting really low that on a pitcher that's going to throw a lot of Rises there could tend to be a lot of chasing to go after the pitch. Not good.

Subtle is better imo.
On the case of rise balls would not want to start so low (ankles) because there would be so much greater movement going on with the arm to get the glove into a proper position to just shave the top of the strike zone.

 

[CoachJD]

Another thing to consider is tenths of a second a catcher needs to react to where the pitch is actually going.
Glove starting really low that on a pitcher that's going to throw a lot of Rises there could tend to be a lot of chasing to go after the pitch. Not good.

Subtle is better imo.
On the case of rise balls would not want to start so low (ankles) because there would be so much greater movement going on with the arm to get the glove into a proper position to just shave the top of the strike zone.

I'm guessing those who start really low do so on pitches that are supposed to end up at the knees, right? I haven't paid close enough attention, but I bet the catchers who do it don't when they call a rise ball. Could be wrong there.

 

[MoJo]

Saw this tweet and immediately thought of this thread (and a few other ump threads).

That is insane. The Ump needs to go away.

 

[nhsoftball]

This answer goes for questions 3, 4 and 5 as well.

Not in current training. Call is decided as the ball crosses the plate. Catchers doing non-strike catching things shouldn't change the call - but doing these things doesn't make life any easier for the umpire.

That said, umpire are human and catchers that are quiet, catch the ball well and provide the umpire the best view of the zone will help the umpire make their decision on strike/ball. Of course I am much happier if the catcher is making my job easier. Does that equate to more strikes? Probably a few close calls if you have an good umpire - likely a lot more for old school/untrained umpires.

Instead of thinking about the catcher "getting balls called as strikes" - think of it as "the catcher making sure that pitches that are strikes are called as strikes"

--> If I do give a close strike that was in any way influenced by the catcher, I am 100% NOT being influenced consciously. <--

Many, many years ago, there was old school umpire training that was 'if it was caught like a strike, call it a strike' - this is NOT taught any more. That doesn't mean these umpires are not out there. That includes umpires who have NOT received training.



influence is not the right word. If you are blocking the umpire, they can't call the close strikes. These will be called balls.
It is on the umpire to move and position to avoid as best they can, but if you can't see the pitch, the close ones are not going to be strikes. Can't see it to call it



Let me guess... really old guys who haven't either haven't had recent training or ignore recent training but are calling on 'years of experience doing it this way'. They say things like "I don't agree with how they teach it today' or "I have always done it this way and it has been successful for me' or "they say to do this, but in practice..." and so on.

It isn't current practice and while I am huge on 'not getting into trouble' this is now considered 'not doing your job' and 'making stuff up'. If it crosses the plate, call the strike. I know locally here in Florida, if you want to progress to the higher levels, you better be using the most recent training and they have been quietly retiring the older umpires who refuse to change.


If it is a strike, you call a strike. At most levels if it hits the dirt it is probably a ball but not always depending (catcher way back, slow pitcher, etc)



Yes....though not for 'influencing my zone' - I am doing everything possible to call the pitch without taking into consideration ANYTHING but where (and if) the ball crosses the plate. This is more how to be a better catcher to make sure when your pitcher throws a strike, it gets called that way.

If the pitch is going to be a strike, you will be able to catch it by setting up right behind the plate. And your arms are long enough to catch a ball 6-10 balls off the plate so there is ZERO reason to set up out there and NOTHING you will do will make it a strike.

• There is NO reason to set up 2 feet outside and ever expect a strike. All you are doing is exposing the umpire to getting hit by a pitch that misses the spot. If the pitch is going to be a ball, you will be able to catch it by setting up right behind the plate. Had a JUCO catcher set up in the opposite batters box with a ~70mph wild pitcher on the mound. When there is NOTHING between me and that pitcher, that was not comfortable.
• There is NO reason to set up in the river and block the umpire. You can easily catch an inside pitch.
• Quieter is better. Less movement is best. Consistent is better.
• If it is clearly a ball, don't try and 'make it a strike'
• If the coach asks where it was, you should answer not the umpire - and it was clearly a ball, say just say so - "It was outside" (making friends with the umpire)
• If the coach asks where it was and you disagree with the call, say "umpire said it was outside" (this tells me you disagreed with the call in the best way). Saying "you don't know where it missed" is not what you should say even if it is what you want to say.

Agree with every bit of this. My daughter was a catcher, and I've been umping for a few years (my penance for previous time as a coach and parent). In a New Engaland Catching clinic for coaches, I learned the approach that the catcher's job is not to get balls called a strike, but to ensure a strike is called a strike. Need to set up and catch the ball in a way that gives a good view to the umpire. I have had catchers set up in the other box and stick a pitch, which I called a ball, tell the pitcher "Oh - just missed".

I will call the pitch as I see it as much as possible. Catchers should stay as quiet as possible. Don't try to pull the pitch in to the zone. If you do that you are almost telling me you don't think it wasn't a strike. I'll still call it as I see it, but that is not helping your pitcher.

 

[radness]

I'm guessing those who start really low do so on pitches that are supposed to end up at the knees, right? I haven't paid close enough attention, but I bet the catchers who do it don't when they call a rise ball. Could be wrong there.

Yes I imagine there are some catchers that do. I know I have. Especially trying to get tight low and inside. View for the Blue!

 

[CoachJD]

Yes I imagine there are some catchers that do. I know I have. Especially trying to get tight low and inside. View for the Blue!

Another question: How different do you want to set up based on pitch height? Wouldn't a catcher who sets up really low for low pitches/drop balls and higher for high pitches/rise balls be giving away what pitch is coming? Feels like that would be something easy to figure out and easy to relay to batters.

 

[Rolling Hard]

"No. If they setup off the plate, I see that and know that if it is caught straight on, it will be a ball. I will say that pitchers sometimes miss the called location and/or miss their spot. If a catcher sets up on the corner (like they should) and the pitcher hits the other corner - that is a hard call (and easy to call a ball)"

This is when a good catcher can still beat the ball to the spot and get around the ball quickly and smoothly enough to get the proper call. It bugs me when catchers cant or dont try to do this in order to get their pitcher a strike call. Failure to get a strike call on a strike is what I would call lazy catching.

 

[Rolling Hard]

Saw this tweet and immediately thought of this thread (and a few other ump threads).

That is just flat-out horrible umpiring. The third strike was a chase pitch. Guy should quit in shame.

 

[radness]

Another question: How different do you want to set up based on pitch height? Wouldn't a catcher who sets up really low for low pitches/drop balls and higher for high pitches/rise balls be giving away what pitch is coming? Feels like that would be something easy to figure out and easy to relay to batters.

About pitchers height,
Pitch location to the strike zone and lower would still be the same.

I am in the category of less is more behind the plate. Set up on either side slightly. But less is more and don't move too much and no leaning.
With pitchers that have exceptional control can really get into a spot like low inside and tight to help stick it.
Also keeps the catcher away from that bat nailing them just in case when really tight.

*some catchers will stay for a long time in the center of the plate and then make an adjustment as a pitcher starts their motion. Very difficult for a batter to recognize the Catcher's new location after movement.

Some Catchers will even signal their glove the location pitch should be going like an impromptu Target for the pitcher
Visual Thing, before the pitcher even starts their movement.
and the catcher will move after pitcher movement starts.

then there's the catchers that stay in the middle of the plate and as the pitch is going to the inside or outside they full-on shift their whole body leaning around the edge of the plate.
that might not send any signal to the batter but it sure sends a signal to the umpire...