Hitting Questions?

[tom.guerry]

MTS -

A good site for that sort of thing is Teacherman's hittingillustrated.com.

One of the early contributor's there was the late Donny Buster.

Donny and I worked a lot together via internet with pictures and email and shared a lot of old fashioned video by e-mail including things like long taped sessions with various instructors, including Nyman and Englishbey for example.

We also got lots of requests for help with mostly baseball dads who were not having success with the Nymna/Englishbey/PCR/1 plane pattern. Some fastpitch also. Some of the dad's and other coaches are doing quite well now with the MLB pattern and are posting on Richard's site.

Donny's son is often illustrated on the front public page using a drill I actually developed and suggested which is the one arm back arm tip and rip sequence emphasizing the similarity of throwing and swinging.

This was very useful.

Donny and I remarked to one another on more than one occasion that no matter how long/much we studied and tried things, we kept coming back to Epstein. There is a LOT of great stuff there.

If you personally want help, send me clips and e-mail and I can give more details.

I do this sort of thing for D1 bb and fastpitch coaches and it is VERY time consuming, but very worthwhile.

With regard to MarkH's Epstein stuff, there is now a thread addressing this at BBF

12yo clips - Page 2 - Baseball Fever

 

[skeptic]

Originally Posted by Mark_H

Ask the MLB pattern expert how many students he has that he takes responsibility for week in and week out.

Originally Posted by tom.guerry

content would once again be appreciated.

My understanding is that MarkH has used Epstein and found it limited.

Perhaps that experience might provide actual content to be discussed here.

That would really fit nicely with the theme of Marc's board

"discuss fastpitch"

Thanks Marc and Happy Holidays to you too.

Originally Posted by MTS

Tom, what would be helpful to this fastpitch board would be you showing a before and after of a hitter you have helped and describe the cues, drills, thoughts, etc that HELPED this hitter have more success - success being defined as hitting the ball harder and with more consistancy. Doesn't matter what age she is.

Dr. Guerry - Tom - Tommy:

It is no surprise that this theme bothers you so much. And no surprise that it is raised over and over again. Doesn't matter how much data you provide about what IS the MLB swing. Doesn't even matter if you are right (you aren't). All that matters to virtually anyone on the internet boards is whether a poster is credible. Meaning has he ever used what he is espousing to actually teach a kid (like mine) to hit.

And apparently, you haven't. At least by your own admission not since the wood bat era.

My kid wasn't alive in the wood bat era. I was barely alive.

And apparently you have supported others since using the internet and video. Again, this is what you have stated.

Neat. Seriously. I'm sure they are grateful.

But that is SO MUCH different than actually working with kids day to day. The fact that you don't get this, and don't see why your credibility is consequently so badly affected, just amazes me.

NOBODY cares what video shows Bonds does with his middle toe when he hits. NOBODY cares how Peavy and Yeager and Epstein can best be reconciled with whatever you guys come up with over at Hitting Illustrated.They can't be reconciled, by the way. NOBODY cares about ridiculous platitudes like "if you can throw, you can hit." NOBODY cares about why you think Nyman or Englishbey is the antiChrist.

NOBODY CARES.

What people do care about is whether somebody can / ever has actually taught a kid to hit.

And I don't think you have. I have PM'd guys like Booth and Ssarge and Boardmember who apparently live in your area, and to the best of their knowledge, you haven't. You've all but admitted that you haven't worked with an actual kid in person in decades. Your own two daughters had very moderate success in high school softball, though it appears the older one went on to some success in college as a volleyball player - which is great. AND, you are certainly to be congratulated for being able to send them to high school where you did. I mean, wow. But in terms of hitting?


I BEG you. . .take 6 months off from all posting activity and use the time to just go and hit with a kid. Test your theories. Refine your theories. Record the progress of your theories. And then they won't be theories any more.

They'll be BELIEFS. And they'll be different than your theories, because actual experience will shape you, and you'll find working with kids will absolutely make you rethink a lot of things in terms of what works. Everyone does this. Well, everyone but you, because everyone else works with kids. You will find it rewarding, in addition to challenging.

And it will finally be real, and you'll actually be able to build some credibility. Which you seem to crave.

PLEASE, Tom. There s a reason you meet the resistance that you do on these boards. Fix it.

 

[tom.guerry]

Happy holidays skeptic. I think the fastpitch related part of the discussion is good. Any content from you ?

Actual content for discussion, as in "discuss fastpitch" ?

why bother participating if you do not want to discuss content.

again, I would recmmend you try to teach high level throw and hit together and excellent resources are nyman and wolforth for throw. jaeger too for long toss, and Epstein is excellent for MLB.

PCR is an acceptable fallback position in fastpitch (an important point - PCR is often described as a blueprint/guideline for assessing development of a swing, BUT it is not, it is a single type 1 plane pattern that is forced by the guideline that says you swing the bat in the shoulder plane).

Another related point is that many key parts of 1 and 2 plane patterns should not be mixed.

No matter how excellent the authroities/info are, an experienced instructor is also required.

Parents aren't usually good at the instructor role even if they have the experience.

Parents should be aware of what they are getting into.

arm swings ? PCR ? MLB?

making a distinction is important.

 

[Mike]

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WOW! I used to think I was a quick study. You guys should move this discussion over to the "who gives a S#!T" thread. By the time a person does the years of research needed to help our kids, they will be grandparents.
I realize there is a correlation between level swing, upswing, slight upswing, down swing, MLB, golf swing, shoulder plane, angles, geometry, ect..... and how to teach my 10 yo daughter the basics of swinging a bat, but holy cow!!
SIOSOFTBALL had a very simple question, if you haven't jumped ship yet, I would suggest checking out sportskool.com. It is a free site and Mike Candrea has some good info on hitting. I don't know what age your working with but it is applicable to all ages, and most importantly you don't need a degree in engineering to understand it. As far as drills go, maybe you can add an age, level, or video clip if you can then, it will be easier for people to give suggestions.
And Tom, I am not trying to pile on here because I'm sure I could not hang with you intellectually, but in my job we have something we call no B.S. theory, if you can't prove it we don't use it. You might have some great insite but the delivery needs work.

Mike

 

[Mark H]

You guys? I'd suggest that should be singular.

 

[Softball_2]

M. Lotief put together a good presentation about his philosophy of hitting mechanics. It was good because he left a lot of the technical jargon out of it. A lot of us use Right View Pro, so we have a common language to discuss the swing action, and he used examples through RVP to demonstrate some of the key points he focuses on in a swing.

If you want more info about his presentation, let me know. I have his notes and my own additional ones.

 

[Mark H]

That would be interesting.

 

[tom.guerry]

Mike-

I have tried to stay somewhat on point here.

The main thing I would recommend is to develop an awareness that a number of VASTLY different patterns exist that your body will organize itself around. The coach needs to work with, not at odss with or mixing patterns.
=======
The original post was :

What are some of the best drills to keep the hitter from pulling their front shoulder off of the ball?

Are one-handed drills effective and what are some of the most common if they are used?

Also, what is the best instructional video that explains hitting philosophy as well as drills used

======

The way to "keep the shoulder in there" is ENTIRELY different in the 3 common fastpitch patterns.

1- It is NOT a problem in the typical low level disconnected arm swing

2- In the PCR swing it is a matter of staying in posture/staying bent over more

3- In MLB it is a matter of EARLY shoulder/arm/hand/bat action that creates resistance to turning.

The back arm action is like the throwing/independent action Slaught and Candrea talk about.

The clip of HANK AARON is a fantastic example, see link.

I mentioned a drill that helps with this called the back arm tip and rip drill.

I mentioned that the best available info that combines the mental and the mechanical MLB swing is EPSTEIN.

THAT ALL addresses the initial post with CONTENT.

Content in return would be appreciated.

 

[RayR]

Mike-

I have tried to stay somewhat on point here.

The main thing I would recommend is to develop an awareness that a number of VASTLY different patterns exist that your body will organize itself around. The coach needs to work with, not at odss with or mixing patterns.
=======
The original post was :

What are some of the best drills to keep the hitter from pulling their front shoulder off of the ball?

Are one-handed drills effective and what are some of the most common if they are used?

Also, what is the best instructional video that explains hitting philosophy as well as drills used

======

The way to "keep the shoulder in there" is ENTIRELY different in the 3 common fastpitch patterns.

1- It is NOT a problem in the typical low level disconnected arm swing

2- In the PCR swing it is a matter of staying in posture/staying bent over more

3- In MLB it is a matter of EARLY shoulder/arm/hand/bat action that creates resistance to turning.

The back arm action is like the throwing/independent action Slaught and Candrea talk about.

The clip of HANK AARON is a fantastic example, see link.

I mentioned a drill that helps with this called the back arm tip and rip drill.

I mentioned that the best available info that combines the mental and the mechanical MLB swing is EPSTEIN.

THAT ALL addresses the initial post with CONTENT.

Content in return would be appreciated.

Please explain #3. Are you talking about scap action that allows the hips to rotate first?

 

[tom.guerry]

MTS-

Thanks for sticking with this.

The MLB pattern is best described in my opinion by Williams and Epstein with the description of axis tilt and plane matching, start on time, hips lead hands, adjust plane (early by sit, late by drop and tilt),keep hands in, hit with unbroken top hand wrist (which requires a certain sequence of unloading of arm levers.

There are key omissions here, primarily the issue of how plane matching/setting up the Williams 'contact zone' requires what is best described by Mankin (batspeed.com) as "early batspeed". this leads to a better way to explain in vs out adjustment which Mankin is best at.

This means the bat/hands stay back as the bat begins to turn.

the bat turn is synched with front leg and hips turning open to create the stretch that Epstein calls rubberbandwinding (coil/wind rubberband as you stride to toe touch with the weight slightly forward and the front foot open).

the shoulders stay closed (avoid flying out) as this happens because the uncocking/turning of the bat is produced by active forces that reactively keep the shoulders back.

This can be thought of mechanically as an 'active early hinge' (wrists are hinge between forearm and bat) that gets the bat turning while the shoulders stay closed. The mechanics of the bat connection is similar to a compound, simplest case "double" pendulum.

You can see what happens here mechanically by watching a simple double pendulum animation. This program lets you trace the tip of the second/distal/peripheral pendulum with a yellow line to get an idea of the bathead trajectory that results from this type action. The program also lets you change the mass and length of the pendula and the frame rate.

It does NOT allow you to provide an "active hinge" that the arm action of an MLB swing involves, BUT you can see the effect on trajectory by looking at a swing of the bathead that follows a situation where the distal pendulum has a running start.

You CAN see the example of the effect of reactive forces when the proximal/central/first pendulum reverses as the second pendulum accelerates.

These concepts of early batspeed and axis adjustment and plane matching to set up optimal contact zone are foreign to the 1 plane/PCR type pattern where the bathead is accelerated by knob pull without a running start.

doublependulum:

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~plynch/SwingingSpring/doublependulum.html

The effect of this type of resistance can be seen in clips of mlb hitters as early rearward blur of the barrell which requires a running start of the bat in a more vertical plane and tilting rather than active turning of the shoulders.

This is why MLB pattern feels like swinging down and hands and hips.

see Aaron clip in this thread:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85705