Speaking of patterns. Tom will tell you what everyone else really means.
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Speaking of patterns. Tom will tell you what everyone else really means.
Bucketpapi
Banned
- May 28, 2008
- 38
- 0
Good points bucket.
The Mendoza pitch takes about 15 frames to get from release to the plate which is offspeed.
Her upper/lower body two engine synch type swing is MLB, but not very high level due to her not using shoulder tilt or handle forces to resist like Bustos or evne beter Aaron do. She resists by wrap/drag.
But when you look at her lower body, you can see her slow down by hinge/sit/flex of back knee, but still have to front side/hip clear out as opposed to pushing the front side out from the back like the totally different 1 plane PCR type pattern where the base/spread of the knees has to narrow early to speed the rotation up enough to achieve the "5 frame swing" goal.
The Mendoza pitch takes about 15 frames to get from release to the plate which is offspeed.
Her upper/lower body two engine synch type swing is MLB, but not very high level due to her not using shoulder tilt or handle forces to resist like Bustos or evne beter Aaron do. She resists by wrap/drag.
But when you look at her lower body, you can see her slow down by hinge/sit/flex of back knee, but still have to front side/hip clear out as opposed to pushing the front side out from the back like the totally different 1 plane PCR type pattern where the base/spread of the knees has to narrow early to speed the rotation up enough to achieve the "5 frame swing" goal.
He's earned it.
While I agree with your comment about the change and the knee bat tipping is obviously not a universal and top hand torque or hand swiveling is obvious nonsense. Good luck with supporting Tom the universal expert with no apparent students.
Bucketpapi
Banned
- May 28, 2008
- 38
- 0
Cry Babies and whiners
Mark,
I'm not interested in supporting anyone anymore. All gurus are the same.
Ego fu**ing maniacs.
I get feed up with the childish posts that frequently occur on these forums.
I spend more time weeding out the Bullsh**T posts than I do reading imformative posts. It has gotten that bad. I hate to see the spread of this crap to this forum. I'm not surprised by it, because it is the same people spreading around.
I have no dog in this fight or any other fight. Just trying to pick up some information.
Why don't you guys PM each other and save the rest of us from your pissing matches? Is this an unreasonable request?
BP AKA BD
Mark,
I'm not interested in supporting anyone anymore. All gurus are the same.
Ego fu**ing maniacs.
I get feed up with the childish posts that frequently occur on these forums.
I spend more time weeding out the Bullsh**T posts than I do reading imformative posts. It has gotten that bad. I hate to see the spread of this crap to this forum. I'm not surprised by it, because it is the same people spreading around.
I have no dog in this fight or any other fight. Just trying to pick up some information.
Why don't you guys PM each other and save the rest of us from your pissing matches? Is this an unreasonable request?
BP AKA BD
R
RayR
Guest
Regardless of the pitch, the clip was to show that elite players do not need to bat tip, THT, or bat turn as Tom has inferred.
You are correct that it does nothing for the original topic except to show another top hitter demonstrating an athletic position throughout the swing even though she early and adjusting on the fly. She is not pulling off.
No question he brings out the worst in me. Lots of history there most don't know about. Sorry it spills on to here. And it will spill on to here as this is about the last place he can still post.
Wow, talk about hijacked threads? SISOFTBALL, it isn't as easy as saying that your player is pulling out and so here is the cure. There can be so many reasons why. For example, improper load. In some players that rotate back too far and block themselves from an efficient unload and so, they start earlier. Thus the appearance of pulling out. For some, it's as simple as poor lower body load and stepping out so the appearance that the front shoulder is pulling off. For some, the pulling out might be the result of setting "tilt" and then having a player either straighen up at the pelvic region or sometimes knees thus forcing them to compensate for inefficeint weaknesses in their stance at any time including load and unload. Finally, the issue of "spinning" can't be ignored. "Spinning" is inefficient rotation. I'd see if not only the front shoulder is pulling off but also is the player spinning on their back toe? Does she develop a "c" in the back and have her head tilted chin high on the swing? If so, spinning is your problem which is not as simple as pulling the shoulder out. I know this isnt' helping but it is important to note.
Yes, you can fix some of these faults with one arm drills. Yes, you can fix some of these faults with work on load/unload. Mostly you can notice timing issues and then devise a plan to see if timing work might alleviate pulling off too soon. I apologize for being so general. Video certainly would help. In reading this thread, I hope I haven't overlooked it.
Tom, Mendoza was considered by all sources I read this year as being the top hitter in fastpitch softball. You state that while she might be good at softball, she certainly isn't the MLB pattern. Tom, with all due respect, this is a softball site. Tom, you constantly harp on "the major league pattern." Yet, I'd suggest that no two mlb players look exactly the same and can be defined in one pattern. It isn't singular. Thus, the ability to move players along with a goal of tapping all of their potential should be the goal of any of us. In saying that, constantly stating that none of us understand what you understand nor are we able to coach it does little good. It's especially troublesome when many of us successfully coach.
Happy Holidays B25.
You said:
"Thus, the ability to move players along with a goal of tapping all of their potential should be the goal of any of us. In saying that, constantly stating that none of us understand what you understand nor are we able to coach it does little good. It's especially troublesome when many of us successfully coach."
Potential is achieved via harnessing innate patterns. This is how coches succeed. many instictively realize it. many do not. Some consciously realize it.
When you take this approach to comparing the work of coaches, it allows you to broaden the sources of information to many other fields and motions to understand what a skill has in common acrosss individuals.
This type of comparative analysis is extremely powerful, far more powerful than scientific theories built up from mechanical models.
one of the most important examples is Hardy's work in golf which demonstrates his experience that the most important way to understand a swing for analysis, teaching and learning is by sorting into one of two basic options which is primarily determined by how scaps work to connect upper limbs to body.
How scaps work is not the same as where the focus of conscious attention is in a fully developed live swing.
there are 2 and only 2 basic "swing" patterns. 1 plane where arms move around body in shoulder plane as body turns or 2 plane where arms move up and down while body turns back and forth.
In the second pattern arms arm much more in control of more passive scap action.
Each pattern has it's own basic complementary arm action in either case.
the MLB throw and swing pattern are both 2 plane patterns with similar early back arm loading action with hands in charge (not creating power but site of control of store and release of power).
Consistency in a pattern is most related to how purely the common fundamentals (derived from comparison of individuals executing the patterns as seen in baseball for example with the lau universals or others who distinguish universal technique from individual style) are actualized.
The more you mix attributes that fit with the opposite pattern, the more "out of position' you are and the more 'athletic" you have to be to succeed.
Hardy's approach is to decide which pattern you are and within that, minimze how out of position you are.
B25 -
I believe you still prefer the PCR approach as developed by nyman and fleshed out by Englishbey.
this PCR apporach is not just a blueprint/measuring process to support trial and error learning. the PCR descripiton requires the scap action that forces the 1 plane action.
the successful mLB power swing is not this pattern. it is 2 plane hands and hips with hands in control via arm action similar to overhand throw.
applying pcr principles and at the same time encouraging emulation of mlb hitters sets up a fundamental conflict in innate patterns which prevents rather than accelerates learning.
consistency comes from picking a pattern and eliminating the most egregious out of position elements.
nyman and englishbey have done about as good a job as possible of that with the handpath hook/active shoulder turn/adjust by bend at waist(up/down) and disconnection timing (in/out),narrow leg base, limit range of motion/shoot for 5 frames or less.
this pattern is not seen to any significant degree in MLB.
++++++
nyman's great failure was to not see the patterns in what he discusses here:
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80273
"In the early days of SETPRO and in my early adventures in motor learning and control the first textbook I purchased was entitled "Motor Learning and Performance, From Principles to Practice" by Richard A. Schmidt.
"Schmidt was a big proponent of motor programs i.e. the use the analogy of how a computer knows how to perform its functions under the direction of a program. The program concept was very prevailent in motor learning research from the 70s through the 80s. this motor learning approach was very attractive to me because of my background being in the design of computerized motion control systems.
"And in the early days of SETPRO I postulated the theory that there were two separate control programs going on one for the upper body and one for the lower body and that they cooperated with each other possibly under the supervision of a third program.
"Functionally this made sense i.e. you could identify with it but later on as I did more readings in the field of motor control and learning I do not subscribe to this multi-program belief anymore.
"My reason for bringing this up is to highlight the actions of the upper and lower body and when we talk about swinging the bat, the mechanism that exerts the greatest influence on the quality of the swing will be the upper body which includes the upper torso shoulders and arms hands bat.
"But what often gives the greatest problem is figuring out how to create the proper sequencing of lower body to upper body.
"So when I say swing and maintain the box I'm talking about a specific point in the swing sequence where the lower body and upper body are at a certain point in the swing process."
+++++
what nyman was really experiencing was two fundamentally distinct and largely opposed patterns due largely to his lack of hitting experience:
NYMAN: "One of the significant advantages I have in figuring this swing stuff out may sound like a disadvantage to some but to me it's a real advantage; the advantage being that I didn't take many swings when I was younger. I didn't play Little League and I played a couple years of high school baseball primarily as a pitcher who was "prone" to wildness (I would strike out the side on nine pitches in the first inning and then walk the entire opposing team in the second inning). So I didn't get many at bats. Which when I started SETPRO put me at the swing level proficiency a 12-year-old.
"Why is this an advantage? Because all the problems of 12 year olds have with their swing I also had, not the least of which was severe bat drag. In other words I could identify with what a 12-year-old with bat drag was going through.
"With respect to bat drag and for me, the more that I tried to throw my hands or create more active hands the worst my bat drag got...................."
B25 -
comparison to other skills and patterns will show that what Nyman discarded was the basic 2 plane pattern of the mlb throw and sing.
what he developed by advising active shoulder turn as context for maintain the box was a 1 plane swing pattern largely incompatible with the way mlb power hitters swing.
his drag got worse because he confused the patterns.
in the mlb pattern, the hands are in control via shoulder/scap tilt and two armed torquing action on the handle. This fixes "drag".
Minimizing drag is a very different matter in the 1 plane/pcr/nyman swing.
continue to mix fundamentals and you can not have an mlb pattern without excessive drag.
1 plane can work in fastpitch with light/hot bats, large sweetspot and less closing speed, but why not emulate what the mlb hitters are really doing and use a motion more in synch with a high level (big defensive weapon) overhand throw.
You said:
"Thus, the ability to move players along with a goal of tapping all of their potential should be the goal of any of us. In saying that, constantly stating that none of us understand what you understand nor are we able to coach it does little good. It's especially troublesome when many of us successfully coach."
Potential is achieved via harnessing innate patterns. This is how coches succeed. many instictively realize it. many do not. Some consciously realize it.
When you take this approach to comparing the work of coaches, it allows you to broaden the sources of information to many other fields and motions to understand what a skill has in common acrosss individuals.
This type of comparative analysis is extremely powerful, far more powerful than scientific theories built up from mechanical models.
one of the most important examples is Hardy's work in golf which demonstrates his experience that the most important way to understand a swing for analysis, teaching and learning is by sorting into one of two basic options which is primarily determined by how scaps work to connect upper limbs to body.
How scaps work is not the same as where the focus of conscious attention is in a fully developed live swing.
there are 2 and only 2 basic "swing" patterns. 1 plane where arms move around body in shoulder plane as body turns or 2 plane where arms move up and down while body turns back and forth.
In the second pattern arms arm much more in control of more passive scap action.
Each pattern has it's own basic complementary arm action in either case.
the MLB throw and swing pattern are both 2 plane patterns with similar early back arm loading action with hands in charge (not creating power but site of control of store and release of power).
Consistency in a pattern is most related to how purely the common fundamentals (derived from comparison of individuals executing the patterns as seen in baseball for example with the lau universals or others who distinguish universal technique from individual style) are actualized.
The more you mix attributes that fit with the opposite pattern, the more "out of position' you are and the more 'athletic" you have to be to succeed.
Hardy's approach is to decide which pattern you are and within that, minimze how out of position you are.
B25 -
I believe you still prefer the PCR approach as developed by nyman and fleshed out by Englishbey.
this PCR apporach is not just a blueprint/measuring process to support trial and error learning. the PCR descripiton requires the scap action that forces the 1 plane action.
the successful mLB power swing is not this pattern. it is 2 plane hands and hips with hands in control via arm action similar to overhand throw.
applying pcr principles and at the same time encouraging emulation of mlb hitters sets up a fundamental conflict in innate patterns which prevents rather than accelerates learning.
consistency comes from picking a pattern and eliminating the most egregious out of position elements.
nyman and englishbey have done about as good a job as possible of that with the handpath hook/active shoulder turn/adjust by bend at waist(up/down) and disconnection timing (in/out),narrow leg base, limit range of motion/shoot for 5 frames or less.
this pattern is not seen to any significant degree in MLB.
++++++
nyman's great failure was to not see the patterns in what he discusses here:
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80273
"In the early days of SETPRO and in my early adventures in motor learning and control the first textbook I purchased was entitled "Motor Learning and Performance, From Principles to Practice" by Richard A. Schmidt.
"Schmidt was a big proponent of motor programs i.e. the use the analogy of how a computer knows how to perform its functions under the direction of a program. The program concept was very prevailent in motor learning research from the 70s through the 80s. this motor learning approach was very attractive to me because of my background being in the design of computerized motion control systems.
"And in the early days of SETPRO I postulated the theory that there were two separate control programs going on one for the upper body and one for the lower body and that they cooperated with each other possibly under the supervision of a third program.
"Functionally this made sense i.e. you could identify with it but later on as I did more readings in the field of motor control and learning I do not subscribe to this multi-program belief anymore.
"My reason for bringing this up is to highlight the actions of the upper and lower body and when we talk about swinging the bat, the mechanism that exerts the greatest influence on the quality of the swing will be the upper body which includes the upper torso shoulders and arms hands bat.
"But what often gives the greatest problem is figuring out how to create the proper sequencing of lower body to upper body.
"So when I say swing and maintain the box I'm talking about a specific point in the swing sequence where the lower body and upper body are at a certain point in the swing process."
+++++
what nyman was really experiencing was two fundamentally distinct and largely opposed patterns due largely to his lack of hitting experience:
NYMAN: "One of the significant advantages I have in figuring this swing stuff out may sound like a disadvantage to some but to me it's a real advantage; the advantage being that I didn't take many swings when I was younger. I didn't play Little League and I played a couple years of high school baseball primarily as a pitcher who was "prone" to wildness (I would strike out the side on nine pitches in the first inning and then walk the entire opposing team in the second inning). So I didn't get many at bats. Which when I started SETPRO put me at the swing level proficiency a 12-year-old.
"Why is this an advantage? Because all the problems of 12 year olds have with their swing I also had, not the least of which was severe bat drag. In other words I could identify with what a 12-year-old with bat drag was going through.
"With respect to bat drag and for me, the more that I tried to throw my hands or create more active hands the worst my bat drag got...................."
B25 -
comparison to other skills and patterns will show that what Nyman discarded was the basic 2 plane pattern of the mlb throw and sing.
what he developed by advising active shoulder turn as context for maintain the box was a 1 plane swing pattern largely incompatible with the way mlb power hitters swing.
his drag got worse because he confused the patterns.
in the mlb pattern, the hands are in control via shoulder/scap tilt and two armed torquing action on the handle. This fixes "drag".
Minimizing drag is a very different matter in the 1 plane/pcr/nyman swing.
continue to mix fundamentals and you can not have an mlb pattern without excessive drag.
1 plane can work in fastpitch with light/hot bats, large sweetspot and less closing speed, but why not emulate what the mlb hitters are really doing and use a motion more in synch with a high level (big defensive weapon) overhand throw.
