CrowHopping, Replanting, etc. - Not being called by Umps

[halskinner]

JJ, can you use pivot and stride leg please? Not following on this opne.

 

[BoardMember]

I don't think the advantage is in the distance gain, it is in the momentum gained from that momentary "skip" from pivot to stride, it lets him push off the pivot leg into the stride leg right before release for a much stronger right hip drive than if there is no replant and push. His drag foot clearly lands for a push before LFT.

Good job Squeeze...........You hit the nail on the head IMO..........

Impetus..........
1. an impelling movement or force; incentive or impulse; stimulus
2. (Physics / General Physics) the force that sets a body in motion or that tends to resist changes in a body's motion

Rather then "gaining" momentum. I think it's more about NOT LOSING momentum otherwise normally lost/dissipated when the initial push would otherwise be normally loosing energy by stride leg/foot plant.......

I can't describe this type of replant as a re-push........But I think the "impetus" helps keep the momentum/energy from normally dissipating without the replant.........

The problem is that the replant on it's own is not illegal..........

 

[BoardMember]

I also liked what you said earlier about the "hip push".........So the reason its hard to prove that the foot is re-pushing the body......Is that just the opposite is happening........IE the body is pushing back against the foot/ground..........Which in itself wouldn't result in a "forward moving push" creating an obvious visual advantage. But the body pushing back against the replanted foot creates and stores energy the would not normally be available if there was no replant......

Better tell that to the ASA............Cause they don't seem to understand the advantage........

I think we've cracked the advantage puzzle...........

 

[BoardMember]

I don't think the advantage is in the distance gain

So you don't agree with Skinner on the purpose of the replant:

A crow hop is done by pitchers starting with both feet on the rubber. It is done for the pitching advantage of shortening the pitching distance

I don't either........I doubt you can have a crow-hop without a replant.........

 

[Hillhouse]

If a different organization wants to play a sport and call it 'Softball', they should play by the rtules, ALL THE RULES. If they want to play under different rules, they should call their sport something else.

I'm still waiting for Hal to answer me about the question I asked him based of his statement above: High school rules do not follow ASA rules, so that's not softball?

 

[Hillhouse]

EXACTLY........I said that was best explanation I've heard...........There is no rule that says that the pivot foot cannot be re-weighted before the stride foot after the initial push..........

So the problem seems that the re-plant on it's own is NOT Illegal..........The question then becomes, does the simple act of replanting the pivot foot prior to re-planting the stride foot create an advantage. Does it matter if the stride leg is fully extended prior to the replant of the pivot foot? Does it matter if the stride foot gains no further distance then if there was no replant?

Here's our guy once again..........

The reason I blocked out his pivot foot/leg, is to see if any of you could determine whether he was gaining an advantage in this pitch by extending further then he would if he was NOT replanting.........

NO ONE COULD TELL.........Because without seeing his pivot foot/leg.........He looks like he's not gaining any advantage...........His pivot foot is coming down pretty much where we would expect it to based on his INITIAL PUSH from the rubber........

So here he is in all his "REPLANT" glory..........Yet without seeing him replant his pivot foot.....Whether he's dragging or not..........None of you could discern whether he was gaining an advantage from the OBVIOUS replant.........

I find that REALLY INTERESTING........

I couldn't tell based off the first clip BM put up, I needed to see it at full speed (or close to it). When you see the clip at it's fastest speed, you will notice the "hitch" or pause in the arm circle. That's how you know he's "crow hopping". Without that hitch in the arm circle, the back foot cannot "replant".

Bill

 

[ddx32]

As a dad [ and obviously my daughter ] who have tried for a long time to correct a crowhop/replant I wanted to chime in about what actually causes this problem IMO. It drives me crazy when people say its done for an advantage and done on purpose. Its done because it was learned early and its extremely difficult to fix.
When she first started lessons everything was about getting into the the closed position as soon as possible. First drill, aim glove at catcher and throw from this position. Progress to both feet on rubber and basically up together and down together. IMO this taught her to go up instead of going out. As she progressed to adding a stride her pivot foot would turn, she would go up then out and at this point her mechanics put her into position to only do one thing, replant. She drags her pivot foot off the rubber so this is basically is all the umps look at. The other coaches complain almost every game but never called for IP.
Now that I've been enlightened about the proper mechanics on this forum we have tried and tried to break this habit. We found by doing the dry runs as suggested by, I think, Amy and Carly, her form looks great. Put ball in her hand and the bad habits creep back in. I know more dry runs. We will keep working.
I know her problem arose from poor instruction early on, both from me and her professional instructors. However, even on this forum as little as 2 years ago people were recommending to start turning their foot as you leave the rubber. Now the consensus is to fire straight off the rubber keeping the stride leg low.
That being said DD is very good and successful pitcher throws in high 50s and is only 15. We just feel she has a lot more potential if we can correct her mechanics.
I apologize for interrupting the p***ing match, let it continue. Just thought I would throw in my two cents for us dads trying to correct this problem.

 

[JJsqueeze]

"It drives me crazy when people say its done for an advantage and done on purpose. Its done because it was learned early and its extremely difficult to fix"

DDX-I don't think the same thinking applies to a grown man in Fastpitch and a little girl learning. Crow hopping and throwing have a tight relationship. Go out in right field and try to throw a laser to home. If you've spent any time throwing a ball you will crow hop naturally for the reasons being discussed, you are not concerned about getting closer to home but you very much want to get every ounce of power you have into that arm. I doubt young pitchers do this intentionally because they most likely do not understand the advantage it just "feels natural" so I know I have never looked on a young pitcher doing this as any sort of intentional cheating etc. I just think they "feel" the need to do it and yes fixing that once learned is a hard "nut" to crack.

 

[halskinner]

Bill, if a HS pitcher starts off with the stride foot behind the rubber then NO, I do not consider it the same game. There are areas of the US that have switched over from slow pitch to fast pitch just in the last 10 years or so. I think they allow this advantage so pitchers can be reasonably competitive with speed where they would not be otherwise. Just like I believe the backswing only helps with adding speed for the very young beginners in some cases, so they can gain enough 'umph' to reach home plate. I think both have the same gosl in mind.

BM, AS I think I understand this, you are saying to not bring the pivot forward first (like a crow hop) but to bring the stride foot forward first and touch down THEN replant or push a 2nd time to counter (?) the resistance of the stride foot landing? Am I understanding that correctly? I heve to say, as a L and D pitcher and instructor that there is NO WAY you would have time to push a 2nd time, not if your strid is as fast, strong and aggressive as it is supposed to be.
To have the time for a 2nd push from the pivot leg, the forward momentum would have to be slow as molasses in February, compared to what I did and taught my students!


I would rock back\, come forward, stride out AS my pivot toe was dragging the ground. The stride foot lands with me on a backwards lean and as the pivot toe is still dragging forward. The ball is released while the pivot toe is still dragging forward. The ball is released and THEN weight is put on the pivot while it is still a few feet behind me. Did I give a little backwards push when my stride foot landed? YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT, that;s why I had the riseball and ball speed that tore the teams up.
That is exactly how I taught my students also.

As I have already said, if the mechanics are strong, fast and aggressive enough , you WILL NOT HAVE TIME for a 2nd push off. If you DO have time for a 2nd push off, you are not close to throwing as fast as you could be.

Again, this is how a leap and drag pitcher does it so take that for whatever you think it's worth.

 

[halskinner]

"It drives me crazy when people say its done for an advantage and done on purpose. Its done because it was learned early and its extremely difficult to fix"

DDX-I don't think the same thinking applies to a grown man in Fastpitch and a little girl learning. Crow hopping and throwing have a tight relationship. Go out in right field and try to throw a laser to home. If you've spent any time throwing a ball you will crow hop naturally for the reasons being discussed, you are not concerned about getting closer to home but you very much want to get every ounce of power you have into that arm. I doubt young pitchers do this intentionally because they most likely do not understand the advantage it just "feels natural" so I know I have never looked on a young pitcher doing this as any sort of intentional cheating etc. I just think they "feel" the need to do it and yes fixing that once learned is a hard "nut" to crack.

The crow hop, whether it is taught at an early age or not, is still done on purpose. My students had no time to crow hop in their motions. You have to go from standing up on the rubber, to running as fast as you can, and you only get ONE STEP to do that. If you have been taught to use mechanics that are slower than that, then you will have time for all kinds of problems to happen.