Turning the barrel 6

[Work=wins]

Yes I can tell from your DD swing that we have different definitions of transfer, shift, separation, and extension. No problem, other than we'll probably never come to agreement unless we spent some time in a cage together somewhere.

Wow, a lot of assumptions wrt a lot of things on a swing that you or I weren't present to see, and determine if it was "squared up" or not, and how far it should or shouldn't have gone. You're now kind of getting into some shaky ground of credibility with me when you start saying things that you really have no idea about. You, nor I were there, and all I've going on is what the kid's dad wrote to me years ago, and his amazement with the swing his son put on that pitch, and the carry that ball had, and what he said it hit. Other than that, neither of us have a clue of what the pitch was or exactly where, how far it traveled, or where in the park it went exactly.

No, not at all. I never said any of my hitters lunged, nor did I say Latta or anyone else was "lunging" when they did a 50/50 weight shift stride, I just say their head moves forward too much...which doesn't mean that they have to be "lunging" do to it. You were the one that brought up "lunging"...again making more assumptions on things that I never said, and that just aren't there.

It doesn't move on that swing...how many other swings of his have you seen to make an assessment that his head never moves like that, and that wasn't just a one time thing?

As far as using the adjectives of "a little", and/or "substantial" I think might get us into sketchy ground unless we each post what we think is "a little" vs "substantial". Are any of these "substantial"?....

....because I say they are not, and that all of them show just "a little" head movement in all of them.

Um, which "college coach" are you talking abgut? The Houston Astros won the "WS" last year, and Dave Hudgens was their "hitting coach". When I was a personal invitee of his to his place in Phoenix (I'm in SoCal) to become one of his first of 12 instructors in his certification course in 2003 he was the hitting coach for the Oakland A's, and he's been employed other MLB teams consistently from that time. Ted coached the Washington Senators, and Texas Rangers back in the day. What MLB teams has Latta, and/or Tewks been employed by if you think they supposedly trump these two MLB coaches?

Now with that, I'm not taking anything away from either one of them, wish them the best, and said that I like a lot of what each teach. Just an FYI for you....I've known, talked with, emailed, PMed, and exchanged text with Bobby on many many occasion when he first came onto these boards, and was learning this stuff like all of us...and believe it or not, he and I have very similar hitting philosophies, and teaching modalities, even if we don't use the same exact words all the time. And just so we're clear, I'm not taking any credit for Tewk's success...he worked his butt off in the cage, online, in the video room, and with hitters...and I couldn't be more pleased with the success he's attained from it. Good guy, and very good instructor for sure.

Mine too, and why I've used that cue with great success (as have many others who've tried/used it as has been already stated here, and elsewhere in the past)...in that it keeps the hitter from shifting too early, and getting onto their front side prematurely amongst other things...that I'll not get into since you already oppose it so much, it would just be a waste of both our time, and energy


Yes, agreed, and thank you as well.


I'm not going to get too critical, but will just say that that is the "Shift THEN Swing" mechanic that I thought you said you didn't like...and know exactly why you used one of Miggy's HRD swings, and not a game swing. Your DD looks very athletic, and has a nice flow in her swing, but from that one BP clip...I'd say there's very little adjustability in those mechanics she's displaying there.


Better weight transfer/shift, but she pushes her arms, and hands forward to the ball, and hits it too far out front, thus losing or really not using her lower half efficiently in the swing to maximize her power...JMHO obviously.



Respectfully as well,
MD

Ps. No worries about typos, and nice job on the long post....I give you an "A-" on it. Lol!!

I will respond soon. Your essays are killing social life. Lol.

1. I figured you posted your hitter previously because you liked what he was doing? You do agree with what he was doing in the gif. At least your words say so.
2. How does your swing fire? With the hips ? The hands ? Lead leg? Lead hip? Important to know when I respond . Thanks. Just a sentence will suffice . Thanks.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

I will respond soon. Your essays are killing social life. Lol.

1. I figured you posted your hitter previously because you liked what he was doing? You do agree with what he was doing in the gif. At least your words say so.
2. How does your swing fire? With the hips ? The hands ? Lead leg? Lead hip? Important to know when I respond . Thanks. Just a sentence will suffice . Thanks.

"Just a sentence"?...that's like me trying to eat just one potato chip....but here goes with just one run on sentence ....1) I posted the hitter to show him TTB to a very elevated pitch....2) "Hips then hands" is the cue they get.....how'd I do with "just a sentence"?...period.

 

[Work=wins]

Yes I can tell from your DD swing that we have different definitions of transfer, shift, separation, and extension. No problem, other than we'll probably never come to agreement unless we spent some time in a cage together somewhere.

Wow, a lot of assumptions wrt a lot of things on a swing that you or I weren't present to see, and determine if it was "squared up" or not, and how far it should or shouldn't have gone. You're now kind of getting into some shaky ground of credibility with me when you start saying things that you really have no idea about. You, nor I were there, and all I've going on is what the kid's dad wrote to me years ago, and his amazement with the swing his son put on that pitch, and the carry that ball had, and what he said it hit. Other than that, neither of us have a clue of what the pitch was or exactly where, how far it traveled, or where in the park it went exactly.

No, not at all. I never said any of my hitters lunged, nor did I say Latta or anyone else was "lunging" when they did a 50/50 weight shift stride, I just say their head moves forward too much...which doesn't mean that they have to be "lunging" do to it. You were the one that brought up "lunging"...again making more assumptions on things that I never said, and that just aren't there.

It doesn't move on that swing...how many other swings of his have you seen to make an assessment that his head never moves like that, and that wasn't just a one time thing?

As far as using the adjectives of "a little", and/or "substantial" I think might get us into sketchy ground unless we each post what we think is "a little" vs "substantial". Are any of these "substantial"?....

....because I say they are not, and that all of them show just "a little" head movement in all of them.

Um, which "college coach" are you talking abgut? The Houston Astros won the "WS" last year, and Dave Hudgens was their "hitting coach". When I was a personal invitee of his to his place in Phoenix (I'm in SoCal) to become one of his first of 12 instructors in his certification course in 2003 he was the hitting coach for the Oakland A's, and he's been employed other MLB teams consistently from that time. Ted coached the Washington Senators, and Texas Rangers back in the day. What MLB teams has Latta, and/or Tewks been employed by if you think they supposedly trump these two MLB coaches?

Now with that, I'm not taking anything away from either one of them, wish them the best, and said that I like a lot of what each teach. Just an FYI for you....I've known, talked with, emailed, PMed, and exchanged text with Bobby on many many occasion when he first came onto these boards, and was learning this stuff like all of us...and believe it or not, he and I have very similar hitting philosophies, and teaching modalities, even if we don't use the same exact words all the time. And just so we're clear, I'm not taking any credit for Tewk's success...he worked his butt off in the cage, online, in the video room, and with hitters...and I couldn't be more pleased with the success he's attained from it. Good guy, and very good instructor for sure.

Mine too, and why I've used that cue with great success (as have many others who've tried/used it as has been already stated here, and elsewhere in the past)...in that it keeps the hitter from shifting too early, and getting onto their front side prematurely amongst other things...that I'll not get into since you already oppose it so much, it would just be a waste of both our time, and energy


Yes, agreed, and thank you as well.


I'm not going to get too critical, but will just say that that is the "Shift THEN Swing" mechanic that I thought you said you didn't like...and know exactly why you used one of Miggy's HRD swings, and not a game swing. Your DD looks very athletic, and has a nice flow in her swing, but from that one BP clip...I'd say there's very little adjustability in those mechanics she's displaying there.


Better weight transfer/shift, but she pushes her arms, and hands forward to the ball, and hits it too far out front, thus losing or really not using her lower half efficiently in the swing to maximize her power...JMHO obviously.



Respectfully as well,
MD

Ps. No worries about typos, and nice job on the long post....I give you an "A-" on it. Lol!!

Here’s Dave Hudgens talking about ‘to the ball’ and 50/50. Seems Dave has changed . Didn’t say a thing about the barrel . I only point this out because you were certified by him correct?

https://youtu.be/1dS0XZF23iw

 

[Mudders Brudder]

I will respond soon.

How does your swing fire? With the hips ? The hands ? Lead leg? Lead hip? Important to know when I respond.

Is that really your response, and you needed to know "How does your swing fire? to come back with just that? Well OK, is that it, and are we done here?

Unfortunately you're late to the party, and I really don't want to repeat what I've said, and written many times over in the past of how I came to my hitting philosophies, teaching tenets, and modalities.

The short version is that I thought I had all I needed from Dave, but while continuing on my journey over the years, realized that he too had things missing, shortcomings, or differences from what is seen in the "mlb pattern", and I therefore incorporated many other coaches, and instructors thoughts, and teachings into mine to get to what I found best for the various levels (9 y/o through MiLB AAA) of hitters that I've worked with over the years (15+).

Thanks for the discussion I guess, and the updated product advertisements Dave's now doing.

 

[Work=wins]

Is that really your response, and you needed to know "How does your swing fire? to come back with just that? Well OK, is that it, and are we done here?

Unfortunately you're late to the party, and I really don't want to repeat what I've said, and written many times over in the past of how I came to my hitting philosophies, teaching tenets, and modalities.

The short version is that I thought I had all I needed from Dave, but while continuing on my journey over the years, realized that he too had things missing, shortcomings, or differences from what is seen in the "mlb pattern", and I therefore incorporated many other coaches, and instructors thoughts, and teachings into mine to get to what I found best for the various levels (9 y/o through MiLB AAA) of hitters that I've worked with over the years (15+).

Thanks for the discussion I guess, and the updated product advertisements Dave's now doing.

And cue the credentials(When we feel threatened). Bottom line there are quite a few holes in your advice/ mechanics . Your hitter doesn’t come close to any pro i have seen. But that’s because it was only his second lesson etc etc.

‘Dave certified me and said 60/40, but now he is selling something so he is saying 50/50.’ He’s lying about something ? Maybe that was to you in 2003? Just like the rope bat now? He was selling you something then as well right? Maybe you should ask him since you have such a repor with him. You were one of twelve to be certified . Right? At the same time tell him he’s a snake oil salesman like you basically are saying now to save your ego. Of course throw everyone under the bus . This is what people who can’t be accountable do. Cue the teacherman theme song and ‘snap’ your fingers.

You talked about credibility? Look in the mirror sir. You have blamed everything on me not understanding one thing about hitting, your NEW student and Dave being a snake oil salesman. Sounds like a person that has stopped learning and has figured it all out( how ridiculous does all this sound to you said out loud?)

Like I said your hitter doesn’t come close to the Hanson principle. My model is much closer. That’s what this was about . And should continue to be the subject. So put up that gif again or another of the same kid. Or even your best student. Let’s analyze it together. Put it next to any HOF hitter you want .

I questioned your opinions when I read your thoughts and saw your work. I am a fly to ...

 

[FP26]

FP, all I was getting at was that it's a cue as in this part of its definition....

...and nothing more (ie. mentally focusing on "firing" the rear hip at a target, and not the physiological process of what makes that "firing" happen).

And yes, geez...I clicked on that link, saw two of Newton's laws, and all of the other stuff...and knew right away that was not at all what I was talking about or inferring.

Lol! Yes. The truth is DD's focus is to fire the rear hip. Even though there is much more involved. If a cue is understood properly, the body has a way of organizing itself in order to accomplish it. That has kind of been my point all along with various types of instruction. Whether it is barrel path or hand path. Whichever the student seems to understand... The goal is ultimately the same.

JavaSource tends to 'go deep' with his explanations. I know you have more experience with baseball players, but for anyone that works with a windmill pitcher, this site is blessed with some of the best in the business offering advice and guidance. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, hitting discussions always seem to be more contentious. It's unfortunate... There have been some extremely knowledgeable instructors that have participated in discussions here over the years. Several of whom I have learned a great deal from, including you.

 

[Mudders Brudder]

And cue the credentials(When we feel threatened). Bottom line there are quite a few holes in your advice/ mechanics . Your hitter doesn’t come close to any pro i have seen. But that’s because it was only his second lesson etc etc.

‘Dave certified me and said 60/40, but now he is selling something so he is saying 50/50.’ He’s lying about something ? Maybe that was to you in 2003? Just like the rope bat now? He was selling you something then as well right? Maybe you should ask him since you have such a repor with him. You were one of twelve to be certified . Right? At the same time tell him he’s a snake oil salesman like you basically are saying now to save your ego. Of course throw everyone under the bus . This is what people who can’t be accountable do. Cue the teacherman theme song and ‘snap’ your fingers.

You talked about credibility? Look in the mirror sir. You have blamed everything on me not understanding one thing about hitting, your NEW student and Dave being a snake oil salesman. Sounds like a person that has stopped learning and has figured it all out( how ridiculous does all this sound to you said out loud?)

Like I said your hitter doesn’t come close to the Hanson principle. My model is much closer. That’s what this was about . And should continue to be the subject. So put up that gif again or another of the same kid. Or even your best student. Let’s analyze it together. Put it next to any HOF hitter you want .

I questioned your opinions when I read your thoughts and saw your work. I am a fly to ...

Thank you for your reply, and had written one to it last night, but decided to sleep on it, and glad I did.

So in light of turning this place into the same shirt-show that so many of these kinds of sites have become, and just another one of the places I've told myself I didn't need to post at just for the ego driven sword fighting, and saber rattling...I'll let you say, and think what you want about my overall instruction, that you were able to deduce from just one swing, at one pitch, from one of my hitters years ago.

But I will share one last email conversation with a friend I met through another site, who I didn't even know lurked here...that really brought the whole thing into perspective to me when I opened his last reply I read while typing my reply. The conversation was short, but poignant....

Him in the title only, and no body in the email: Mudders brudder??!!!!

Me: Yeah, my brudder is a lot nicer, and a lot smarter than I am...the bastard.

Him: Lol too funny. I didn't recognize it was u except by the video and writing style. Then I put 2+2 together.

...in that I came here with the true intentions of starting anew, and had inadvertantly got caught up again in the nonsense of tit-for-tat that I told myself I would no longer get into.

If you go back, and reread where this all started, you'll find that I thanked you for posting Coach Latta's video, and complimented him on it....

Thanks for posting that, I've not seen that video before, or heard Doug teach...although I have heard some very good things wrt his instruction, and now I see why.

...on eight out of the nine points I made wrt it. You latched onto the one point that I said I had "a bit of a disagreement with him wrt", and came to the conclusion that just because I didn't agree with everything he presented, that the, "Bottom line there are quite a few holes in your advice/ mechanics". Cool thanks for the advice, and for pointing out what I, and many others obviously weren't aware until now.

Maybe some day we can get together in a cage somewhere, and share our beliefs/teachings in a setting much more conducive to understanding each other, rather than just wagging swords, and insults at each other as what has/is ending up happening here.


Have a great day,
MB

 

[Mudders Brudder]

Lol! Yes. The truth is DD's focus is to fire the rear hip. Even though there is much more involved. If a cue is understood properly, the body has a way of organizing itself in order to accomplish it. That has kind of been my point all along with various types of instruction. Whether it is barrel path or hand path. Whichever the student seems to understand... The goal is ultimately the same.

JavaSource tends to 'go deep' with his explanations. I know you have more experience with baseball players, but for anyone that works with a windmill pitcher, this site is blessed with some of the best in the business offering advice and guidance. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, hitting discussions always seem to be more contentious. It's unfortunate... There have been some extremely knowledgeable instructors that have participated in discussions here over the years. Several of whom I have learned a great deal from, including you.

Thanks, and while I appreciate the kind words, I've recently learned that "there are quite a few holes in [my] advice/ mechanics", so I'd forego listening to anything I have to say going forward, and just stick with the "mlb hitting gurus" out there.

But you are correct with your understanding that the cues I use, and post are just mental approaches to achieve a goal in mind, and not the actual physical movement that actually happens or should happen, because as you say, "If a cue is understood properly, the body has a way of organizing itself in order to accomplish it". So true, so true...and thank you for stating that in a much more succinct, and concise manner than I've apparently been able to do recently.


Cheers,
MB

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

To me connected means using the shoulder rotation, and using the force without falling of the merry go round. Does not mean locked. but it should not be sloppy.

such as in this gif from RDbass.

Very good connection in that front arm.

You can also whip off of this shoulder rotation.

He is also extending his back arm while his shoulders are rotating with his bat still lagging. what a great example of whipping the bat. He is getting extra force with the extending arm.

To me, connection comes from using the torso/hip-engine and forearm/hand-engine appropriately ... in a sense, both engines 'turn' ... they 'turn' independently ... and they 'turn' in opposition ... and in the process the two independent engines pull on one another ... some may like the gear analogy used here on occasion ... but the two engines pulling on one another is the 'connection' that should be sought imo.

As you said ... connection does not mean 'locked'. SE would teach such a form of 'connection', and it was wrong.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Not Mud, but I will offer my opinion. Over the past few years, Mud and I have talked at length about different 'theories' and 'hit the ball with your rear hip' is one that we discussed several times. I actually used it with my DD and found some success with it. In this particular case it goes back a ways... DD is primarily a pitcher. We were able to find her a very good pitching coach (in my opinion) and he utilizes the rear hip as a teaching tool. When she was trying to hone her locations, her coach suggested that she throw her rear hip (right hip) towards her target (in, out, high, low). By adjusting where her rear hip is going and it's angle, she was better able to control her pitches. Then when Mud mentioned that same goal in regards to hitting, it made immediate sense to me, and more importantly to DD. So I am personally a believer in the cue. That said, it is not the only way to accomplish the goal. I have no issue with using other cues. If they work for you (or anyone else), more power to you, and congratulations.

Honestly, DD's favorite hitting phrase is "drop the pig in the tornado". Personally I interpret this as a top down swing (triggered by the hands, or 'the pig') being pulled by the lower half (or 'the tornado'). So, at least in my opinion, 'hit the ball with your rear hip' has merit.

FP ... would appreciate any follow-up comments on the notion of using the rear hip in terms of windmill pitching accuracy.