IR--one more time

[jbooth]

Raise your hand if you think this is a true statement..........Standing at attention with the shoulders/arms/wrists relaxed, who on this boards palm faces forward "naturally".......Who on this boards thumb "naturally" hangs "outside" the elbow......Palm forward........

From an exercise physiology site:

Anatomical Position and Anatomical Neutral

In order to describe the movement of the human body, a standardized reference, called the Anatomical Position, is used. Anatomical position describes standing erect with the palms facing forward.

There is another anatomical reference point known as Anatomical Neutral (a.k.a. Fundamental Starting Position).

Anatomical Neutral is a more natural pose, with the hands facing the torso.

So, you're both right, but most anatomists consider the neutral position of the hand to be as Huff said. Palm facing forward. Although that may not be the way it actually hangs, it is the common position used for descriptions and discussion of movement.

 

[Steve Huff]

Thank you! But medical evidence and expertise hasn't affected his opinion. That is an interesting post and I will certainly be open minded to revise this thinking. I never considered hanging arm positions because the radial bone turns over the top of the ulna. It was described in our physiology class as an acquired condition because of the opposing thumb, and that when the bones were in a more "natural" state, they were parallel. By natural I meant all of nature including other animals, so that we are unique in this "hanging" respect. So I will adjust my thinking. The irony is that the argument has little to do with deciding this issue. My point is that when palm up, in front or behind, you can't supinate the elbow more. It isn't designed to do so, but allows 270+ of pronation, palm down (palm beyond palm to ground).

 

[jbooth]

My point is that when palm up, in front or behind, you can't supinate the elbow more. It isn't designed to do so, but allows 270+ of pronation, palm down (palm beyond palm to ground).

That is correct. In the neutral state as commonly described; the forearm is actually supinated which sort of isn't logical. Boardmember is referencing neutral as the hanging position where the palm is facing the thigh. That is a more logical neutral IMO, because muscle action would be necessary from that position, to cause pronation or supination. From the "other" neutral; muscle action could only cause pronation.

You both know more about softball pitching than me, but I think you're both teaching the same thing. From the pitching videos that have been posted, I see this anatomically;

From the 12:00 position to the 9:00 position, I see some external rotation of the humerus combined with a slight supination of the forearm, to get the palm under the ball.
From 9:00 to release, I see simultaneous adduction and internal rotation of the humerus with slight flexion at the elbow joint.

At release I see flexion of the wrist with the supinated type of "neutral" being maintained as the wrist flexes. I see continued IR of the humerus after release, followed by pronation of the forearm and flexion of the elbow, then flexion of the humerous at the shoulder joint.

[video]http://firstpickclub.com/video/irsoftballpitch1.mp4[/video]

 

[BoardMember]

Hey Jimmy how are you?.........How's the grand DD (neice?)........I know you love bio-mechanics so I thought you might show up here.........

First of all........I've never denied what anotomically "neutral" position is........

And this quote the Huff brought foward proves it........The quote was in response to my original assertion that the palms WANT to face the thigh NATURALLY..........Mr. Huff refuted this by saying that anatomical "neutral" was palm forward.........I reiterated to the board that I was speaking of natural........And in Huff's need to be right he injected "neutral"........

Raise your hand if you think this is a true statement..........Standing at attention with the shoulders/arms/wrists relaxed, who on this boards palm faces forward "naturally".......Who on this boards thumb "naturally" hangs "outside" the elbow......Palm forward........

You will NOT find an argument from anywhere on this board disagreeing with what ANATOMICALLY NEUTRAL is..........So in essence........Huff created a strawman argument by INJECTING "anatomically neutral" vs. what I actually said, "hanging natural", and he continues to argue that point against no argument......IOW......He's arguing against the "strawman" that HE created.......

Secondly......Huff stated that by placing your arm behind you PALM UP.......You would be in the anatomical "neutral postion".......In fact he said this more then once in this thread.......Infact he said it within his last few posts.......

I told him SEVERAL TIMES that was incorrect........And that that palm up was supinated........I tried to tell him that by flexing the elbow from neutral you are then supinated..........And putting that palm up position behind him was accomplished through EXternal rotation of the humerus..........He finally realized his mistake a few posts back and admitted that actually.......PALM OUT was neutral when the arm was behind him........But he forgot his mistake and again said that palm up was anatomically neutral again!.....

Now follow me here Jim........Prior to his realization of his mistake........He said THE ONLY WAY TO SUPINATE the palm was to EXTERNALLY ROTATE THE SHOULDER...........I called him on this mistake.........And told him that from anatomically neutral.........PALM OUT........SUPINATION CAN IN FACT be accomplished by rotating the palm UP using ONLY the INFERIOR radial-ulnar joint just above the wrist.........WITHOUT ANY E/R movement of the humerus........

What you'll notice is that.......He ALWAYS avoids his mistakes and creates NEW STRAWMEN to argue against........A perfect example is his avoidance of this most recent one I just told you about.......You notice he completely avoided it.........

His pattern........Because he is a classic "refuter".........Is to set up strawmen and argue against them........He has done this during this entire thread........Now where have you and I dealt with this kind of narcisitic personality before Jim.........And what have we learned about this personality trait.......DO NOT BECOME the strawman........Avoid the strawman and continue to state YOUR OWN argument.........

Mr. Huff has NOW injected "elbow flexion" as his next strawman..........And we will see how that plays out when I return this afternoon from lessons.........

Always my best Mr. Booth..........

 

[jbooth]

Hey Jimmy how are you?........

Well, if you really want to know. LOL. I broke my wrist in a work accident. Crushed the distal end of the radius quite badly. Had surgery to put it back together on April 5th. It still hurts.

How's the grand DD (neice?)

Granddaughter is in her 3rd year of ball. She's 12. Playing on a crummy team in a very low quality Little League. She wants to pitch, but she isn't very driven to practice. Tried to get her to try out for a club team, but she didn't want to commit. She has talent and potential, but in the off-season from last year, she told her Mom, she likes the game, but she really doesn't want to practice at it. She's pitching a little better, but can't throw strikes. She came to me after a couple of team practices and asked for help. I got her from being 3 feet from the plate most of the time, to around 1 with strikes once in awhile. Not good at all. Reading this thread last night for the first time, has given me some things to try if she wants more help, but she has to tell me she wants to practice, I'm not going to force her.

As to you and Huff, I'm staying pretty much out of it. I'll just read both of you, and decide what I want to keep. I will interject if EITHER of you say something totally incorrect anatomically. But, I don't have the expertise in actually pitching underhand, to debate what either of you believe.

 

[justadad]

Boardmember thank you! I read your post a while back about IR and taught it to my daughters. Once they got used to it and didn't have to think about it they picked up speed and movement. They now pitch for their high school team and are doing very well. Without your help they would have had to quit pitching which they both dearly love. I have been reading posts on this website for a long time and am sadden by the negativity from the some of the people who have started posting on here with in the last year or so. There is alot of good information on this site and most of it has come from Boardmember.

 

[BLB]

First off I can't see his digits, fingers thumbs in your photos. Perhaps yours are larger and clearer. Secondly, my premise is simple. You set up a question, claimed there was no difference, then purported an obvious difference. That is illogical. Your questions weren't designed to educate or enlighten, but to set a trap. How do I or anyone else know what you filmed. Does everyone look the same to throw a rise-ball, or perhaps a million different looks? It was just a hammer in your hand, I said so, and played along.

Well at least you realized that the hand orientation was identical for both pitches and would be identical for the curve ball as well, if he threw one. In mens' major fastpitch, pitchers usually throw the rise, drop, changeup (not all) and change speeds on the drop ball. The only screwball you might see at a men's major tournament is the guy who acts silly after a few beers. By the way, these photos from the 9:00 position don't show his tucked finger on the rise ball.

 

[Steve Huff]

Boardmember thank you! I read your post a while back about IR and taught it to my daughters. Once they got used to it and didn't have to think about it they picked up speed and movement. They now pitch for their high school team and are doing very well. Without your help they would have had to quit pitching which they both dearly love. I have been reading posts on this website for a long time and am sadden by the negativity from the some of the people who have started posting on here with in the last year or so. There is alot of good information on this site and most of it has come from Boardmember.

Maybe since you are another suddenly appearing supporter, you might read the closed threads. The threads were closed because of personal attacks on me. I am not crying, just think you might be unbiased in the "negativity" issue. And I am not negative about I/R. I support it. I believe in it. There are basically four elements to pitch speed contributions which are: Stride momentum (a little, can hinder or allow good arm speed, THE CIRCLE, THE ARM WHIP, and I/R which also helps. My contentions have only been my 3 questions for which I was attacked, and the premise that the circle and arm whip add more to speed than the other two factors. I/R in conjunction with arm whip does help, no doubt about it. Congratulations!

 

[Screwball]

I don't care much for this discussion, and I also think that positions on the clock vary due to angle of the camera, a person's flexibility, etc.. Rivera throws his cutters because he has no wrist flexibility.

I have to say that telling a pitcher she MUST turn her hand over at release and finish that way (as part of IR, which people seem to say it is) is just about as bad as saying you must use a hello elbow. Pitchers develop a lot of idiosyncracies in what they do after release. I saw Renfroe adding a low fist pump one day, kind of like an exclamation point on the pitch.

I pitch at least once a week as a favor to players for BP and I don't turn my darn hand over. It does finish kind of sideways but I NEVER once thought about it or needed to, just like when I throw from centerfield. Results are important, not a stop motion on the slow mo camera.

I am not going to stop and look at my hand for goodness sakes during or after the pitch, especially if I just threw a great pitch.

 

[justadad]

Softball Junkie, I am not a suddenly appearing supporter. After IR worked for my daughters (a little over 2 years) we have shared it with several other pitchers in our area who have had differing levels of success. Just because I don't post online and join in the discussion doesn't mean I don't read every thread about pitching I can to help my daughters. Since I didn't mention you by name and honestly weren't thinking about you specifically in my first post you must be feeling guilty and in need to defend yourself. Too bad! You do bring some interesting items to the discussion.