IR--one more time

[GOINGDEEP]

I don't know why it's always necessary to "disect" and clean up your posts to understand your postions and/or rebutals........And expose mis-information.......



I don't understand the importance of the above statement as it relates to the subject........It seems to be rhetorical in nature......

So is the profoundness of that statement that the humerus moves from back to front? Wow.........Good catch!.......Maybe some people didn't realize that happens in the pitching motion?......

I'm not interested in "Truisms"........



Ya ok......But you were serious when you said that you believe that this motion of moving the humerus from back to front is the number one contributor of velocity/speed?.........I guess that's like saying if that didn't happen we wouldn't have fastpitch or slowpitch?.........So yes........Compared to "not pitching at all" it's important.......But by NO MEANS is it the #1 contributor of velocity.......I've you like I'll quote Dr. Werner in that regard........She says I/R IS the #1 contributor to velocity..........



Interesting........I find that I can achieve palm up from the "neutral position" simply by flexing my elbow up 90 degrees from the ground while my bicep is pinned to my side! Are you saying that this is NOT a supinated forearm/palm position?........

Now IF I want to move that supinated position of my palm out to the coronal plane (in the shoulder line) I would externally (laterally) rotate my humorus at the shoulder........So I don't think it's at all correct to state that palm up and only be achieved using E/R in the shoulder.......



Hmmmm......I wonder if that medical video was produced to show the bio-mechanics/kinematic segmentation of the windmill motion?........

Look steve........You've taken this ENTIRE discussion about I/R away from the intent of improving the pitching motion......And more over, how a young pitcher can improve her velocity and spins.......You insert "Truisms" all over your posts to create points that undermine the entire premise of I/R.........

You are the CLASSIC "refuter".........You claim that you are really just raising questions in the name of science and "safety".......I COMPLETELY DISAGREE.......And it shows in every post you make in an attempt support your own ego......

Did you read what I wrote about INternal rotation serving to STABLIZE the joint? That was from a SCIENCE dissertation from a PHD in bio-mechanics........What if I told you THAT SAME dissertation says that because the ELBOW turns WITH the humerus/bicp........Ulnar Collateral ligament injurys were the LEAST LIKELY to be an issue as compared to the glenohumeral joint (shoulder)..........And other injuries reported at the elbow and wrist are caused more from over-use, musculature inefficiency, and LATERAL (valgas) FORCE STRAINS then "INternal rotation".........

So look........Regarding your "medical video".........In the CLASSIC sense of bio-mechanical articulation.......Pronation AND supination are anotomical positions of PRONE (FACE DOWN) and SUPINE (FACE UP).........Pronation and supination IS THE ACT OF ACHEIVING those positions............The Bicep Brachii muscle in the humerus and the "suppinator" muscle in the forearm are responsible for turning the hand from palm down to PALM UP.......And it happens even with your humerus PINNED.......

So don't tell people the ONLY WAY to SUPINATE the palm is with shoulder rotation.........Thats JUST NOT TRUE........

Again.........There is 180 degree of motion available for pronation AND supination WHILE THE HUMERUS IS PINNED TO YOUR SIDE and there is ZERO resultant motion WITHIN the shoulder joint.........UNLESS you want to put that supination into/behind the coronal plane (shoulder line)..........Then you have a supinated palm and forward with an externally rotated humerus..........External rotation of the humerus (shoulder) supinates the Humerus and elbow.........NOT the forearm and palm.........Because they are segmented limbs.........

Again.......I wish you'd stop finding it necessary to introduce "Truisms" to attempt to bolster your credibility........

Just STICK TO THE PITCHING MOTION.......And namely the delivery phase.........

The rest of this is just more "Truisms"......



This is more garbage.........



Put flexion in your elbow......LIKE WHEN YOUR PITCHING!.........Put your arm behind you just inline or just behind the shoulder line and PALM OUT..........Have someone hold your bicep/humerus STILL and put a hand on the shoulder joint..........Turn your palm UP!.........The DISTAL radial ulnar joint is responsible for wrist articulation/PALM POSITION...........



I'm not mad Steve and I am being "ligitimate".........But you've now been presented with SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION that absolves the palm up position from responsibility for "more injuries".........So you can DROP that argument.........It doesn't hold water.......

And your inference that "swinging the humerus" from front to back is the biggest contributor to velocity in windmill is unfounded conjecture........Heck.......Even your favorite Dr. says that INTERNAL ROTATION is the number one LARGEST contributor to velocity.........See below:



And "WRIST SNAP"?..........What IS WRIST SNAP???? Don't tell me.........It's the waiving up/bowling action of the wrist........We don't use that anymore..........

Now if you mean "I/R".........That we use a lot of..........

You guys!!!

This sounds like our annual Christmas dinner discussion between my brother and I dissecting baseball pitching. Mean while the wives are rolling their eyes, kids are having a food fight, and my father instigates anytime there is a lull in the argument. But I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[BLB]

The second one is obviously the rise ball. My point is, as with most elite pitchers, his hand orientation is the same at the 9:00 position for all 3 pitches. As for hand orientation, imagine him having a tennis racquet in his hand. Would the racquet head be more vertical (pointing to the sky) or more horizontal (pointing to 3rd base in this case because he's a lefty)? In all honesty, it doesn't matter what your answers are. This has more to do with having people decide for themselves based on what they see on videos and photos. Both you and Boardmember contribute good things to this site but on this one subject, Boardmember's info coincides a lot more with what I have experienced and seen over the last 50+ years. For whatever its worth, pitchers I've worked with in the past have never had any arm or shoulder problems. Your health concerns might have some merits but I just can't see it.

 

[BoardMember]

There are no "health concerns" regarding supination of the palm/foream at 9:00.........And in fact this position would more likely serve to lesson the lateral force on the elbow then palm out........

The second one is obviously the rise ball. My point is, as with most elite pitchers, his hand orientation is the same at the 9:00 position for all 3 pitches. As for hand orientation, imagine him having a tennis racquet in his hand. Would the racquet head be more vertical (pointing to the sky) or more horizontal (pointing to 3rd base in this case because he's a lefty)? In all honesty, it doesn't matter what your answers are. This has more to do with having people decide for themselves based on what they see on videos and photos. Both you and Boardmember contribute good things to this site but on this one subject, Boardmember's info coincides a lot more with what I have experienced and seen over the last 50+ years. For whatever its worth, pitchers I've worked with in the past have never had any arm or shoulder problems. Your health concerns might have some merits but I just can't see it.

 

[Steve Huff]

The second one is obviously the rise ball. My point is, as with most elite pitchers, his hand orientation is the same at the 9:00 position for all 3 pitches. As for hand orientation, imagine him having a tennis racquet in his hand. Would the racquet head be more vertical (pointing to the sky) or more horizontal (pointing to 3rd base in this case because he's a lefty)? In all honesty, it doesn't matter what your answers are. This has more to do with having people decide for themselves based on what they see on videos and photos. Both you and Boardmember contribute good things to this site but on this one subject, Boardmember's info coincides a lot more with what I have experienced and seen over the last 50+ years. For whatever its worth, pitchers I've worked with in the past have never had any arm or shoulder problems. Your health concerns might have some merits but I just can't see it.

The second pitch is "obviously" the rise-ball. Yes, well in fact it isn't. You see it is actually a fading peel drop to a left hand batter deep in the box, twisting the saw dust out of that aluminum handle, while looking for a rise-ball. I don't know how you couldn't see that subtle difference? You need to be more observant in the future!

So let me get this straight! His hand positions are all the same on every pitch at 09:00, yet this is "obviously" a rise-ball! His palm-positions are the same, they look the same, but in the first photo he has the longer stride, to throw a drop ball. Hmmm! Everything you said makes perfect sense to me. I just can't see the obvious differences between the things you say have no difference. Ok, I stand corrected.

You know between my father and I, we wasted 9 years on University education. So just to justify $0.50 of that investment I will present my opinion of what I EXPECTED you to say. I know you are familiar with the term, "logical fallacy"? Some people misuse the term and call it an "illogical fallacy". The problem is it is a double-negative! Perhaps you have heard of "ad hominem" attack? That is a type of "illogical fallacy". There are perhaps as many as 3 fallacies in your previous post, this post, and attempt. First is the "straw man" fallacy: It is to plan ahead of responses by the opponent with the intent to discredit. The facts, conclusions, or arguments can then be changed. The second is called, "the appeal to ignorance fallacy": This fallacy says, well the only knowledge of this issue I possess, so I can use it as a weapon in debate. And since I am the only enlightened person pertaining to this specific issue, you must agree with my conclusions. Lastly is the "ad populum fallacy" which is set up to appeal to the majority. In other words you fallacious question and conclusion is designed to provide you with approval. I was tempted to add "false dichotomy" to the list, but that would take to much explaining. But my wise guy opposing response in the first paragraph was the typical response to a "false dichotomy". Almost every argument posted here contains some fact, some fiction, but a lot of false dichotomy. In other words twisting the truth!

You should be embarrassed quite honestly! And no, I wasn't a philosophy major, the truth is on facebook.

 

[Steve Huff]

Here is a false dichotomy presented by boardmember:
Ya ok......But you were serious when you said that you believe that this motion of moving the humerus from back to front is the number one contributor of velocity/speed?.........I guess that's like saying if that didn't happen we wouldn't have fastpitch or slowpitch?.........So yes........Compared to "not pitching at all" it's important.......But by NO MEANS is it the #1 contributor of velocity.......I've you like I'll quote Dr. Werner in that regard........She says I/R IS the #1 contributor to velocity..........[/PHP]

So I believe that the arm circle which is permitted by the humerus ball rotating in the rotator cuff is the primary contributor to speed, and I'm an idiot? The circle is the biggest factor, and I'm an idiot?

And your inference that "swinging the humerus" from front to back is the biggest contributor to velocity in windmill is unfounded conjecture........Heck.......Even your favorite Dr. says that INTERNAL ROTATION is the number one LARGEST contributor to velocity.........See below:

Research (Werner et al., 2006) supports the notion that internal rotation of the
shoulder is the driving factor in the velocity of the softball at release.

The next step in underhand pitching research should be the development of a three-dimensional analysis
of the pitching motion in an attempt to partition the accelerations of not only the typical
sagital plane motions of flexion and extension but to also include both the frontal plane
motions of abduction and adduction at the shoulder as well as the transverse plane....

Might I ask what the shoulder is doing as it rotates around the circle? Might I ask how your statement disqualifies my belief that the arm in shoulder rotation is the biggest factor, and then you claim it is I/R. I/R of what? The forearm? Thank you for posting Dr. Werner's confirmation of my premise "bold print" above. Biceps forward, biceps back, biceps forward, is the biggest contributor to pitch speed.

Nothing like breaking your own argument!

Palm-up is achieved through additional rotation of the humerus ball, sphere, in the rotator-cuff.
Interesting........I find that I can achieve palm up from the "neutral position" simply by flexing my elbow up 90 degrees from the ground while my bicep is pinned to my side! Are you saying that this is NOT a supinated forearm/palm position?........

Now IF I want to move that supinated position of my palm out to the coronal plane (in the shoulder line) I would externally (laterally) rotate my humorus at the shoulder........So I don't think it's at all correct to state that palm up and only be achieved using E/R in the shoulder.......

As the doctors physiologists eluded to in the medical video, and Boardmember disagreed at the time, the neutral position is palm down at 09:00, (and no I am not advocating this or suggesting it has any value boardmember) or facing forward, palm to the side facing forward, not facing toward the thigh. So you are arguing with the physiologists not me. If you hold your arms straight at your side, palm forward to home plate, you are in the neutral position, as we were disigned, evolved if it pleases others. If you bend your elbow 90 degrees, palm up, you can't turn your hands thumb out! Supination isn't possible except a few insignificant degrees. When the a "bowler" is at 09:00 her biceps faces forward toward the plate. The palm is face-down. That is again the neutral position. When you use 180 degree I/R, your biceps faces backward, as it does with 90 degree I/R. The palm again is aligned with the biceps, turned to the max in a "false" supinated position, because the forearm can't turn out of it's own accord, only the shoulder turning more in the rotator cuff allows this position. The resistance of the shoulder creates the tension in the elbow. Now the tensions in the shoulder and elbow are my conclusions. That does not preclude the truth of my other physiological presentation. Please note video at 00:50 mark. So are you going to believe boardmember or the medical profession?



And by the way, to show that I am not dogmatic, I think I may have misspoke. I think palm down at 09:00, with biceps turning forward may in fact be a pronated position. If you hold your arm straight out to the side palm forward, that would be neutral, which can't be the same thing as palm down.

 

[BoardMember]

Here is a false dichotomy presented by boardmember:
Ya ok......But you were serious when you said that you believe that this motion of moving the humerus from back to front is the number one contributor of velocity/speed?.........I guess that's like saying if that didn't happen we wouldn't have fastpitch or slowpitch?.........So yes........Compared to "not pitching at all" it's important.......But by NO MEANS is it the #1 contributor of velocity.......I've you like I'll quote Dr. Werner in that regard........She says I/R IS the #1 contributor to velocity..........[/PHP]

So I believe that the arm circle which is permitted by the humerus ball rotating in the rotator cuff is the primary contributor to speed, and I'm an idiot? The circle is the biggest factor, and I'm an idiot?

And your inference that "swinging the humerus" from front to back is the biggest contributor to velocity in windmill is unfounded conjecture........Heck.......Even your favorite Dr. says that INTERNAL ROTATION is the number one LARGEST contributor to velocity.........See below:

Research (Werner et al., 2006) supports the notion that internal rotation of the
shoulder is the driving factor in the velocity of the softball at release.

The next step in underhand pitching research should be the development of a three-dimensional analysis
of the pitching motion in an attempt to partition the accelerations of not only the typical
sagital plane motions of flexion and extension but to also include both the frontal plane
motions of abduction and adduction at the shoulder as well as the transverse plane....

Might I ask what the shoulder is doing as it rotates around the circle? Might I ask how your statement disqualifies my belief that the arm in shoulder rotation is the biggest factor, and then you claim it is I/R. I/R of what? The forearm? Thank you for posting Dr. Werner's confirmation of my premise "bold print" above. Biceps forward, biceps back, biceps forward, is the biggest contributor to pitch speed.

Nothing like breaking your own argument!

Ah see........Here we go again!.........What you said was the humerus swinging from back to front was the biggest velocity generator........Now we're gonna move to the full circle??

So again.......Compared to NOT going around in a circle........The circle IS the biggest factor...........If we compare it to NOT moving in a circle..........CAN YOU PLEASE STICK TO THE SUBJECT??........The subject is INTERNAL ROTATION...........Of which there is none until approximately 9:00.

See EVERYONE's arm "goes in a circle" Steve.......But SOME THROW ABOVE 60mph, approaching 70 in some cases.......And others "go around the circle" and can't throw 55mph.........But EVERYONE "goes around the circle"..........

The follow diatribe is no longer even an argument because you figured out that "neutral" would be palm out NOT down........And from "neutral" the distal radial ulnar joint (inferior) is responsible for SUPINATING the palm UP..........WITH ZERO amount of shoulder rotation......The beauty (and problem) of it is that hand has a choice which direction to face!............It can align with the humerus (facing back/up) or NOT if it wants!.......And it doesn't effect the load on the glenohumeral joint.........

As the doctors physiologists eluded to in the medical video, and Boardmember disagreed at the time, the neutral position is palm down at 09:00, (and no I am not advocating this or suggesting it has any value boardmember) or facing forward, palm to the side facing forward, not facing toward the thigh. So you are arguing with the physiologists not me. If you hold your arms straight at your side, palm forward to home plate, you are in the neutral position, as we were disigned, evolved if it pleases others. If you bend your elbow 90 degrees, palm up, you can't turn your hands thumb out! Supination isn't possible except a few insignificant degrees. When the a "bowler" is at 09:00 her biceps faces forward toward the plate. The palm is face-down. That is again the neutral position. When you use 180 degree I/R, your biceps faces backward, as it does with 90 degree I/R. The palm again is aligned with the biceps, turned to the max in a "false" supinated position, because the forearm can't turn out of it's own accord, only the shoulder turning more in the rotator cuff allows this position. The resistance of the shoulder creates the tension in the elbow. Now the tensions in the shoulder and elbow are my conclusions. That does not preclude the truth of my other physiological presentation. Please note video at 00:50 mark. So are you going to believe boardmember or the medical profession?



And by the way, to show that I am not dogmatic, I think I may have misspoke. I think palm down at 09:00, with biceps turning forward may in fact be a pronated position. If you hold your arm straight out to the side palm forward, that would be neutral, which can't be the same thing as palm down.

 

[BLB]

Huff said ''So let me get this straight! His hand positions are all the same on every pitch at 09:00, yet this is "obviously" a rise-ball! His palm-positions are the same, they look the same, but in the first photo he has the longer stride, to throw a drop ball. Hmmm! Everything you said makes perfect sense to me. I just can't see the obvious differences between the things you say have no difference. Ok, I stand corrected''.

I don't know why you must take everthing so personal, but yes it was a riseball. I video taped his pitches myself, documented what each pitch was and furthermore, on his rise ball, he shows his grip on the upswing. Someone who knows what to look for with regards to ''ball in hand'', they should see the difference caused by the riseball grip. Also, I didn't need any info on your education. I have 3 university degrees myself. Does that make me any smarter in softball? No. But apparently, it doesn't help you either. Espèce de niaiseux! BoardMember, why do you even bother with this foolishness?

 

[BoardMember]

BoardMember, why do you even bother with this foolishness?

If you really want the truth BLB.......It's because others are learning from this thread........

And here Steve.....This is for you.......And important parts are refereced from your favorite Doc......I'd suggest you and others read this very carefully......AND ESPECIALY YOU STEVE..........I've BOLDED THE SCIENCE for you so you don't miss it this time........And please....For those of us who've follow your posts........Don't try to tell us you've agreed with me all along after you read this..............

(Barrentine et al., 1998; Werner et al., 2006).

To better understand the underhand pitching motion it is advantageous to break the motion down into components. Specifically, Barrentine, 1998, has broken the underhand, windmill pitching motion into 4 distinct phases. (Figure 1) (Barrentine et al., 1998). These four phases are the wind-up, stride, delivery, and follow-through.

The wind up phase is defined as the time from the initial movement of the pitcher until lead foot toe-off. During this phase and the stride phase, the majority of the kinetic and kinematic variables of the upper extremity remain minimal (Barrentine et al., 1998; Werner et al., 2006)

In the wind-up phase, the shoulder is hyperextended at the shoulder as the pitcher pushes off the pitching rubber with the pivot foot, to initiate movement of the body towards home plate.

The next phase is the stride phase, and is defined as the time from lead foot toe-off to lead foot contact with the ground. This phase emphasizes the forward translation and is noted by the maximal linear velocity of the system of the center of mass of the system (Barrentine et al., 1998; Werner et al., 2006). As the pitcher reaches foot contact, the trunk rotates toward the appropriate foul line; for example a right handed pitcher rotates toward the third base line, with the shoulder flexing past 180° to a slightly extended position (Barrentine et al., 1998).

As the pitcher reaches foot contact, the trunk rotates toward the appropriate foul line; for example a right handed pitcher rotates toward the third base line, with the shoulder flexing past 180° to a slightly extended position (Barrentine et al., 1998).

The delivery phase is considered the most important phase biomechanically, and contains most of the integral kinetic and kinematic data. The delivery phase, defined as the time from foot contact to the release of the ball, is the most ballistic portion of the motion and where most of the kinetic and kinematic analyses are conducted.

During the delivery phase, the pitcher uses a combination of trunk rotation (pelvis and upper torso), internal rotation at the shoulder, and flexion at the elbow to apply maximum acceleration to the ball. This maximum acceleration is achieved through the arm developing the highest angular velocity and force values that occur during the windmill pitching

Yes Steve.......SCIENCE tells us that the MOST KINEMATIC AND KINETIC ENERGY is happening IN THE DELIVERY PHASE.........

Since the arm is TRAVELING IN A CIRCLE during the ENTRE MOTION.......What it is you suppose is creating such a BALISTIC ACTION IN THE LAST PHASE OF THE CIRCLE.......You know........RIGHT WHERE I/R BEGINS TO TAKE HOLD ON THE SYSTEM............

So Buddy...........You WANTED SCIENCE that backed me up.........Both in terms of velocity AND safeness of MAX I/R........There you have it.........

That fact the I've NAILED YOU as a "classic refuter" should play out on your very next post...........Unless it is purely an ADMISSION that I've been right all along and the science backs me up.........

And the people here who've actually TESTED what I write.........Didn't have to go through ALL THIS CRAP to figure it out buddy...........

You may NEVER get it.........And like I said...........I don't really care.........I write for the masses......From 35 years of experience both as a pitcher.........AND a student of the art throwing the ball underhand..........As well as an accomplished and NEVER FULLY LEARNED PC..........

And IF you haven't learned a thing from our back and forths here.........I feel sorry for your students............

Remember I'm a lunatic according to you.........And remember you said the ARM CIRCLE has the biggest effect on velocity........And remember.......YOU asked if you were an idiot for stating so........

I hoped I've helped you answer your questions buddy.........

 

[Steve Huff]

Huff said ''So let me get this straight! His hand positions are all the same on every pitch at 09:00, yet this is "obviously" a rise-ball! His palm-positions are the same, they look the same, but in the first photo he has the longer stride, to throw a drop ball. Hmmm! Everything you said makes perfect sense to me. I just can't see the obvious differences between the things you say have no difference. Ok, I stand corrected''.

I don't know why you must take everthing so personal, but yes it was a riseball. I video taped his pitches myself, documented what each pitch was and furthermore, on his rise ball, he shows his grip on the upswing. Someone who knows what to look for with regards to ''ball in hand'', they should see the difference caused by the riseball grip. Also, I didn't need any info on your education. I have 3 university degrees myself. Does that make me any smarter in softball? No. But apparently, it doesn't help you either. Espèce de niaiseux! BoardMember, why do you even bother with this foolishness?

First off I can't see his digits, fingers thumbs in your photos. Perhaps yours are larger and clearer. Secondly, my premise is simple. You set up a question, claimed there was no difference, then purported an obvious difference. That is illogical. Your questions weren't designed to educate or enlighten, but to set a trap. How do I or anyone else know what you filmed. Does everyone look the same to throw a rise-ball, or perhaps a million different looks? It was just a hammer in your hand, I said so, and played along.

 

[Steve Huff]

And remember you said the ARM CIRCLE has the biggest effect on velocity........And remember.......YOU asked if you were an idiot for stating so........
Ya ok......But you were serious when you said that you believe that this motion of moving the humerus from back to front is the number one contributor of velocity/speed?
But by NO MEANS is it the #1 contributor of velocity.......I've you like I'll quote Dr. Werner in that regard........She says I/R IS the #1 contributor to velocity..

- boardmember

The delivery phase is considered the most important phase biomechanically, and contains most of the integral kinetic and kinematic data. The delivery phase, defined as the time from foot contact to the release of the ball, is the most ballistic portion of the motion and where most of the kinetic and kinematic analyses are conducted.

During the delivery phase, the pitcher uses a combination of trunk rotation (pelvis and upper torso), internal rotation at the shoulder, and flexion at the elbow to apply maximum acceleration to the ball. This maximum acceleration is achieved through the arm developing the highest angular velocity and force values that occur during the windmill pitching

- Dr. Sherry Werner

You know it is funny when you post things that you claim support your position and make me a fool, and stick your own foot in your mouth.

More distortions above! First I said the arm circle is the greatest contributor, as you quoted me above. Then you claim that I said moving the biceps forward to back is the greatest contributor; but when you read Dr Werner's first paragraph, it seems that last phase from 09:00 to release is the most dynamic, even though that wasn't my point about the biceps, which was about joint movement that had nothing to do with velocity. Do you even know what "flexion" means? I think so, but it seems convenient to distort it! Flexion is the bending of the elbow joint as if to touch the shoulder with the hand. It is difficult to get from IR to flexion because it would be "hello-elbow"! It is the hand in the neutral palm up position touching the shoulder. There is no IR in flexion though perhaps you could claim it happens concurrently!!!!! All animals have joint flexion of some kind. For example, lemurs! Lemurs have it working the same way, but palm-down is their neutral position. Horses have flexion reversed in each pair of legs. Flexion is more of a term referring to "bowling" than IR. There is also shoulder flexion, such as when your arm is at 12:00 in the windmill.

Interesting........I find that I can achieve palm up from the "neutral position" simply by flexing my elbow up 90 degrees from the ground while my bicep is pinned to my side! Are you saying that this is NOT a supinated forearm/palm position?........So don't tell people the ONLY WAY to SUPINATE the palm is with shoulder rotation.........Thats JUST NOT TRUE........

- boardmember

No, and I included this quote because it has to do with flexion, or flexing. You state that you can flex your elbow and achieve palm up? Well that is the neutral position of biomechanics. Palm up IN FRONT is neutral. There are no joint, distortions when the elbow is at the side and you flex palm up. For the 1000th time watch the video. This isn't me, it is medical science. Your followers aren't stupid, though some say and do stupid things (I do to, but I admit it), so have them supinate their palms while standing elbows at side, palm-up, and go from there. Supinate and pronate don't apply to the windmill motion because the human body wasn't designed to pitch a softball. We chucked spears in advance of baseball performance. Softball came later.

I repeat for the 100th time. I teach I/R. I teach 90 degree I/R. I teach even more, arm whip which is the biggest bonus to speed, not I/R. Because the arm/elbow position that allows arm whip, is essential to I/R. This is not my religion. Your premises, your 180 degree I/R stance is your dogma, your religion. That is why you create fallacies, misrepresentations, and sometimes silly posts to refudiate me. The first thread got locked because of the vile things you were saying. Just plain nasty. I admit you have been acting more like an adult lately, and that is appreciated. But please understand. I don't know what to believe that your write. It is convoluted, difficult at times to follow, and I don't know you from Adam. Quite frankly I don't care who you are because I don't like your behavior. If you had the intellectual voracity you purport to have, you wouldn't have had to chuck your slanderous spears.

All of this crap because of 3 questions I presented, and threatened your "religion". Pass the offering plate, especially to josephlis. I think he wants to be your twin or something. He came, gave 10 "Thanks" to you in one day, none to anyone else, never posted, and disappeared! He will probably show up tomorrow. You need to put him on your membership rolls.

1) Does 180 degree I/R add more velocity than 90 I/R (a stupid question because I don't believe in I/R as boardmember has stated)
2) Does 180 I/R produce more shoulder and elbow stress, potentially leading to more irritation and injury?
3) Does 180 degree, or 90 degree I/R promote better entry into the release point allowing better and consistent spins?

And yes I intentionally changed the wording because:
1) I am too dumb to remember what I said, or
2) I did it to trick you, or
4) I underestimated your perceptive nature and wanted to create confusion (by jumping from 2 to 4 for example) or I agreed with you all along because your erudite arguments and video have eroded my front and revealed my limited capacity for understanding the "Scientific Method".

I know, I know, your technique has the answers because you said so!