IR--one more time

[Screwball]

In softball after 12:00 you have gravity helping and then impeding the follow through. You have the opposite in baseball.

I am sure the timing of circles is very close elite pitcher to elite pitcher. The big determining factor is not how fast the circle is per se, but getting the arm to time with the legs, when legs are always naturally faster. I would think a longer stride takes longer...

Then you must pitch against the brace of the leg after leaping. No baseball pitchers leap, nor are they required to make a full circle with their arms (which to me seems slower than a baseball delivery).

 

[jbooth]

In softball after 12:00 you have gravity helping and then impeding the follow through. You have the opposite in baseball.

I am sure the timing of circles is very close elite pitcher to elite pitcher. The big determining factor is not how fast the circle is per se, but getting the arm to time with the legs, when legs are always naturally faster. I would think a longer stride takes longer...

Then you must pitch against the brace of the leg after leaping. No baseball pitchers leap, nor are they required to make a full circle with their arms (which to me seems slower than a baseball delivery).

I bolded "the arm" to be specific. I said "THE ARM" movement prior to 12:00 had little effect on speed. Of course the arm and body need to be in synch, and the body movement affects speed.

It's fairly simple to test. If you have a radar gun, have a pitcher who likes a big, long, fast arm circle; pitch 10 pitches normal and record all the speeds.
Then have the pitcher put the hand at 12:00 and do everything else that she normally does and re-synch the body to hold the hand there until the body gets to where it normally is when the hand is at 12:00 and throw.

Practice a few to get the synch right, then gun 10 pitches. See how much difference there is in speed.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

The big determining factor is not how fast the circle is per se, but getting the arm to time with the legs, when legs are always naturally faster. I would think a longer stride takes longer...

Then you must pitch against the brace of the leg after leaping. No baseball pitchers leap, nor are they required to make a full circle with their arms (which to me seems slower than a baseball delivery).

We still ( BB ) have to keep from small drops and drive, we need to drift and keep the lift leg up from the ground so we can stride longer. The longer we keep the leg up high off the ground while striding the longer the stride will be and the more powerful you will come down and land. The more power you can get into landing then the faster you will rotate and the speed of your pitch increases.

The "theories" are pretty similar between the two ( BB and FP ). The mechanics are different no doubt. But it's the timing and getting the body to explode with power that connect the two.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Now comes some clarity.... Not to escalate hostility, but I want to re-state that, by turning the ball towards 3rd, creates the negative motion that triggers the arm whip. IMO

 

[jbooth]

What? Just why do I need to do this? Everyone knows the wind up doesn't contribute to velocity; we knew this even from the days in the past when the slingshot creates more velocity than the windmill, even from a step style (having done both). Some kids have wind ups that others hate (I personally don't have one), but it is up to the pitcher to change. Good luck: They are not on this board to hear you and they like their wind ups.

I think you can think and discuss these things and test minutiae (like testing sunrise), but the practical application is limited because it does not come from being a pitcher, but rather watching pitching.

One reason a pitcher wants a quick rather than slow circle (I would say motion) is to keep the runner from stealing second. Another is so the batter can't look at you for too long. So don't assume that a fast circle is some awful pitching coach philosophy that doesn't work.

And comparing to baseball by using a big fat picture gets you in some trouble so I pointed that out.

Apparently you missed my point. It was my impression that some people were saying that the whip and IR contributed the most to speed, and some others said a fast circle was as important, or more. I was simply saying that I didn't believe that a fast circle had much to do with the end speed.

You twice now have missed that point and got off on body motion, hitter deception etc. etc.

If you don't think the circle contributes speed, then you seem to agree with my point. I don't know why you went off on other points.

I tried to be specific as possible and state that the ARM movement prior to 12:00 didn't affect speed. You seem to have missed that completely. You talked about things other than the arm, and things other than speed.

Try to focus.

 

[Rich Balswick]

Apparently you missed my point. It was my impression that some people were saying that the whip and IR contributed the most to speed, and some others said a fast circle was as important, or more. I was simply saying that I didn't believe that a fast circle had much to do with the end speed.

You twice now have missed that point and got off on body motion, hitter deception etc. etc.

If you don't think the circle contributes speed, then you seem to agree with my point. I don't know why you went off on other points.

I tried to be specific as possible and state that the ARM movement prior to 12:00 didn't affect speed. You seem to have missed that completely. You talked about things other than the arm, and things other than speed.

Try to focus.

I would just like to agree with Mr. Booth. Screwball, if you read this, I would like to say as kindly as possible that you often come across so strongly from your own perspective of things that you don't seem to really hear what others have to say. You obviously love the game and I'm sure you care a lot or you wouldn't spend so much energy and time expressing yourself. ( and hopefully I'm not making too much of an absolute out of my own perspective here so that I'm not hard of hearing myself)

 

[Steve Huff]

Secondly......Huff stated that by placing your arm behind you PALM UP.......You would be in the anatomical "neutral postion".......In fact he said this more then once in this thread.......Infact he said it within his last few posts.......

Show me! This is my whole debate and source of my question. Show me! Behind the back, the only way you can achieve palm up is to rotate the ball of the humerus in the rotator cuff. That is what I said. No, elbow flexion is quite simple; palm up, bend your elbow. I wasn't distorting the argument! Do you think people can't read as well as you can. You either are a liar or read at a fifth grade level. If you are so convinced of your righteousness, then don't distort, lie, or post half truths.

 

[Steve Huff]

Now comes some clarity.... Not to escalate hostility, but I want to re-state that, by turning the ball towards 3rd, creates the negative motion that triggers the arm whip. IMO

I agree with a caveat; you can have arm whip when palm down at 09:00. But it is not an easy position and elbow flex that can be repeated by the pitcher. Most end up with a straight arm. By using I/R, turning the palm out, or up as boardmember proposes, this makes the I/R repeatable and enhances the process. So I would have to agree with you since most "bowlers" don't process any arm-whip.

 

[Perfect Circle]

I agree with a caveat; you can have arm whip when palm down at 09:00. But it is not an easy position and elbow flex that can be repeated by the pitcher. Most end up with a straight arm. By using I/R, turning the palm out, or up as boardmember proposes, this makes the I/R repeatable and enhances the process. So I would have to agree with you since most "bowlers" don't process any arm-whip.

Good...Just wanting an explanation/application yet concise for a 10 yr. old.

 

[Screwball]

Peeps: stop taking everything so personal. Some of this relates to other posters than you or other ideas than yours.

Rich: I could care less if you are kind. I don't need your analysis of me or pitching to understand either. Thank you. Certainly won't make me change.