When should an umpire just be quiet?

[Rolling Hard]

As far as umps coaching..... I see this ALL the time. Probably more often than not. Its like the umps cant help themselves. Puts the coaches in a tight spot. They can either go talk to the ump and ask him not to talk to the players, which the ump will probably take offense to or just let it go.

 

[EdLovrich]

You are moving goalposts around... apparently trying to make it appropriate to step over the line from umpire to coach.
Obviously you are not wanting to accept the point of conflict that your topic can put into every game. There is a difference between instructing players how to play their positions. And limiting what the umpire is supposed to do with the rulebook.

What I gleaned from your posts is you seem to reflect only on your own umpiring skills and not apply the differences and inconsistencies of other umpires.

If by coaching we mean instructing a player how to play her position, I agree. That is never acceptable for an umpire to do, it is the job and responsibility of the coaches and parents.

I agree with you whole-heartedly that there is a difference between instructing the mechanics of playing the game and instructing about the rules. How many coaches are instructing the rules in the proper way? How many coaches know the intricacies of all of the rules and how they are being applied in today's game? How many organizations at any level are inviting umpires to a practice or two to cover even the current year's rule changes and POEs? In the games that are on a clock, do you want an umpire taking time out to call coach over to go over the intricacies of the pitching rule, ensuring that s/he understands completely and has a chance to ask her questions, or is it better to make a quick comment to the P that she needs to stop a bit longer to simulate taking a sign, or, the third option, just call the illegal pitch, or the worst of all, just ignore it and let the habit become even more ingrained and leave the problem for the next umpire?

Yes, I reflect on my own umpiring, my betterment is my responsibility. I do, in fact, look at the differences between interpretations and applications of rules, the mechanics of how I officiate, the inconsistencies between myself and other umpires. Many times I dismiss the way other umpires do things, sometimes I take what I see, or even better what I talk about, and apply them to my own game. Marriard is an example of someone whose thoughts and comments I take to heart, As I said in #5 in this thread, perhaps this old dog needs to learn some new tricks when it comes to this topic.

Even among the denizens of DFP there is not a consensus of what would be inappropriate coaching and acceptable rules instruction. Some, such as RADCatcher and El Oso say never, nothing, always wrong, just keep quiet. Others, such as RickM think it is not only appropriate, but welcome especially at the lower levels. Still others, including Marriard, feel rules instruction is appropriate, but only to the coach (with players in earshot).

As an umpire reflects on what has been said so far in this topic, I am still not sure what is the best path for him or her to follow. Does the umpire have a desire to advance up the ladder, to the NCAA level? If so, then the words of marriard carry greater weight as they are coming from an evaluator and someone who is actually working at that level. If it is someone who is only going to be working local rec ball, then perhaps growing the game at the grass-roots level is more important and taking a moment to tell a P to 'be sure you pause to simulate taking a sign' is the proper way to go. Or maybe they know they will be working a high-stakes, DI scholarship on the line with every call, game where anything s/he does will be criticized by a coach who has all of the rules down pat and has taken the time to make sure the players have the same iron-c;lad understanding and all s/he needs to do is call the rule book as written, because that coach will absolutely agree with every ruling, since they have read and studied that same rule book and has the same understanding of every casebook interpretation. THAT would be the best of all worlds.

 

[Rick M]

Others, such as RickM think it is not only appropriate, but welcome especially at the lower levels. Still others, including Marriard, feel rules instruction is appropriate, but only to the coach (with players in earshot).

I would say my position is that it is appropriate and welcome only at the 8-10U Rec level.

But I’m self-aware enough to know that if you could go back in time, and ask me to explain the lookback rule when I was coaching DD’s first-year 10U Rec team as one of two volunteers who were willing to put in the time, I’d probably have gotten it wrong.

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[EdLovrich]

I would say my position is that it is appropriate and welcome only at the 8-10U Rec level.


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Fair enough. I didn't intend to put words into your mouth.

 

[marriard]

Tell us more about what you learned please. I see (MLB/ College Softball/ TB) strikes called balls when the catcher sets up outside corner but the ball backs up (doesn't break) and pitch is a middle-in strike but because catcher set up outside and had to move her mitt considerably the umps call it a ball.

First TV and spectator angles are always worse than the umpires. Even when you have a good line of sight; you are not repeating your positioning like you would if you are always umpiring from a repeatable position every game. This sounds like BS, but I have done the exercise and from memory, the group of experienced umpires calling from behind the home plate but behind the fence got about 10% more calls wrong than the umpire actually in position to call.
Because every pitch is tracked at MLB, there is a clear idea of what umpires are calling so you have the info to change your calling patterns and understand how your eyes are fooling you or how your positioning hurts you calling. There are websites dedicated to it and they even score each umpires games based on the data they have - check out https://umpscorecards.com/

Almost all umpires strike zones are rounded - the edges where you have a close pitch on both height and width gets missed more than any other (which makes sense - you have to make TWO decisions). And the pitch most missed is the high/outside one - which is furthest away. This is where I missed most - 2 reasons - hesitant to call because it looks like a ball and also how I was positioning my head was hurting how I saw the pitch. Still a work in progress.

And most of the umpires are old and set in their ways and not going to training because 'they already know how to umpire' or cost or timing or whatever (see below) - so if you are not getting training; you hear how they do it. So new methods are not getting to most umpires

All of this comes down to the lack of training or long-term habits and experiences.

• Most umpires do ZERO-2hours of training per year.
• HS umpires - in Florida we have to pass the NFHS exam (75% to umpire varsity, 90% to umpire playoffs); local org might do a couple of non-compulsory clinics plus turn up to a meeting or two. So about 2-3 hours for the test, maybe 3-6 hours for clinics/meetings. Most I would say 4 hours per year.
• College - last couple of NCAA exams where monsters. 8-10 hours of deep book work. 85% pass from memory. Each conference may have some clinics which you have to pay for, but they re-use the same people or assignors every year so a lot of people get excused from having to take them (basically if I am NEW to a conference they will want to see me - but even if I don't go, I will probably still have the opportunity to do some games in conference because they need people).

Most of this also isn't free; some of it is VERY expensive. So your weekend travel ball umpire - is he going to spend $1,000+ to attend a weekend training? No he isn't - that is 20 games @ $50 to just recover costs. FHSSA does a clinic every year - 5 hours from my home - so clinic + hotel + time + hope it will be good this year... Plus equipment and shirts and hats and so on....We don't make any of this easy.

 

[radness]

I agree with you whole-heartedly that there is a difference between instructing the mechanics of playing the game and instructing about the rules.

✔

 

[gdc03120]

I recently umpired a 14U TB scrimmage where I called an IP because the pitcher's step-back was completely outside the 24" pitching plate/lines (not even close to having to guess). The batter fouled off the pitch (which was 2-1 before), so I motioned for the IP, then gave the count of 3-1. The next pitch was a ball, so the batter walked. The pitcher, confused, called time and approached about halfway to the plate to ask, "I thought she fouled the last pitch so it should be 2-2?" I responded, "She did, but the pitch was illegal, so it's a ball for her."

When the pitcher asked why it was illegal, I said, "Your step backward was outside the width of the plate, and that makes it illegal. It has to be within the white of the plate and you're good there." She said, "Oh, I'll watch for that then. Thanks", and went about her game. Never had another IP call again in that game.

I wouldn't declare that "coaching" while umpiring. I would say this was answering a player's question using what the rulebook says and letting her know what she did wrong and what is correct. The defensive coach acknowledged it without me having to talk to him and I overheard him speak with the pitcher when she came in after that half-inning. Personally, if she had not asked me, I would not have answered, but I felt it would have been rude to ignore her inquiry just to avoid appearing to "coach" a player.

 

[EdLovrich]

Nope, definitely not coaching, but it leads to a perfect example of what I am asking. If you had seen that motion during warm-ups, would it be coaching if you mentioned it then, or is that preventive and letting her know you you are watching?

 

[PapaBear]

Catcher can ask where the miss is.
Umpire should never tell a player they are about to leave early. Don't be part of the game or helping influence outs, just call it.

 

[marriard]

Thinking about this more... this thread is one of the reasons I just don't do ANY coaching when I am officiating. Trying to make the decision of when and where Is it OK? Where it is not? Is this situation OK? What level is it OK? Etc... Don't need to do any of that.

It just makes it so much easier to just not do it - that decision is always a good one.

Let the coaches handle it. Just bring them in, let them do their job.