When should an umpire just be quiet?

[Rick M]

As an umpire you shouldn't do either of these things. That includes in tball or 8u when the batter is facing the wrong way - I will happily call a coach in to fix it but I am not fixing it myself.

I have to disagree with this. Particularly at the Rec level, an umpire who takes the time to explain a rule right after a play happens is invaluable. One of the things that makes softball a hard sport for young kids to stick with are some of the arcane rules. Regular readers of DFP know coaches and umpires (the adults) still disagree on the finer points of some rules.

I don’t want an umpire telling a batter to raise their back elbow when they load, but nothing wrong with pointing out that they’re standing outside of the batter’s box. And especially when a beginner pitcher is doing something illegal, it’s probably better to hear about it from an umpire (the authority figure on the field) than from a coach who is usually a dad.

Once you’re at 12 or 14U TB the players should know the rules, and the umpire should just call the game. But prior to that, an umpire can help instill a love of the game by engaging the players, making it fun, and most importantly, keeping the game moving.

There are 3-4 umpires in our area who are really engaged, and as a coach and a parent, I’m always happy to see them at our field.


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[radness]

Not sure why someone is being called out by name in a forum discussion, other than to quote them, but yes, umpires call games differently.
This does not mean they interpret or apply rules differently, but each might see a particular play differently. Of course, pitchers pitch differently in any given situation, coaches coach differently depending on many factors. This is a game played and officiated by humans and thankfully not by machines.

Being called out? By your username lol because you posted the topic was asking your impression of that question.
Geeez lol and wrote/included the word please acknowledge....
Heck if it's that hard for you to answer related question to your own post imagine how players on the field and coaches on the on the field are going to react to your over coaching them

As you commented/confirmed
Yes umpires call games differently and
Yes umpires might see a particular play differently.

There's your answer ~ if every umpire started coaching players that exact same thing would happen ~they would interpret what they're seeing differently.
That added misinterpretation reinterpretation re explanation every umpire might give to players would definitely be distracting, and possibly wrongly informing a player of what to do in the following game would be interpreted differently by the next umpire.

 

[radness]

I have to disagree with this. Particularly at the Rec level, an umpire who takes the time to explain a rule right after a play happens is invaluable. One of the things that makes softball a hard sport for young kids to stick with are some of the arcane rules. Regular readers of DFP know coaches and umpires (the adults) still disagree on the finer points of some rules.

I don’t want an umpire telling a batter to raise their back elbow when they load, but nothing wrong with pointing out that they’re standing outside of the batter’s box. And especially when a beginner pitcher is doing something illegal, it’s probably better to hear about it from an umpire (the authority figure on the field) than from a coach who is usually a dad.

Once you’re at 12 or 14U TB the players should know the rules, and the umpire should just call the game. But prior to that, an umpire can help instill a love of the game by engaging the players, making it fun, and most importantly, keeping the game moving.

There are 3-4 umpires in our area who are really engaged, and as a coach and a parent, I’m always happy to see them at our field.


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Explaining rules is much different than coaching.
As you point out...
Even coaches don't agree on how to coach mechanics and otherwise.

 

[EdLovrich]

Explaining rules is much different than coaching.
As you point out...
Even coaches don't agree on how to coach mechanics and otherwise.

And this is what my original question was about and why 'coaching' was in quotation marks. If, early in a season or at lower age/skill levels, is it appropriate for an umpire to take a few seconds to verbally explain to a player what is or is not allowed? Is this coaching or preventive officiating? Should the game be stopped to bring a coach out to attend the remarks, or just do it in the natural pauses of the game and not interrupt the flow?

Quite often, I will do it even at the HS level just to let the player know I am watching for something (proper pause to simulate taking a sign, leaving early, C pulling a pitch from outside the zone into it thinking they will 'buy' a strike for the P). Are these acceptable in your view or should an umpire just keep to himself?

 

[EdLovrich]

There's your answer ~ if every umpire started coaching players that exact same thing would happen ~they would interpret what they're seeing differently.
That added misinterpretation reinterpretation re explanation every umpire might give to players would definitely be distracting, and possibly wrongly informing a player of what to do in the following game would be interpreted differently by the next umpire.

Explaining rules is much different than coaching.
As you point out...

Not sure I can decipher where you are coming down on the question. In the first quote you seem to say that an umpire should NOT give any information about what his/her interpretation of a particular rule is (and how that rule will be enforced in that particular game). In the second, you sem to be saying it is alright to do so.

Let's take the 'simulate taking a sign' portion of the pitching rule: My pause may be longer or shorter than the umpire you saw the day before, would you, as a player or a coach, rather I made a quick comment that I needed a bit longer or call the illegal pitch as soon as I felt there was not a long enough pause? Is this 'coaching'? If it is the opponent that I am giving the information to, am I depriving you as the offense the illegal pitch?

Keep in mind, I am talking, in this case, about a pause not being 'long enough' for my interpretation of the rule (it may or may not be different than the interpretation of the last umpire you saw) and NOT a blatant violation like stepping onto the pitcher's plate with hands together and going right into the pitching motion.

 

[marriard]

I have to disagree with this. Particularly at the Rec level, an umpire who takes the time to explain a rule right after a play happens is invaluable. One of the things that makes softball a hard sport for young kids to stick with are some of the arcane rules. Regular readers of DFP know coaches and umpires (the adults) still disagree on the finer points of some rules.

I don’t want an umpire telling a batter to raise their back elbow when they load, but nothing wrong with pointing out that they’re standing outside of the batter’s box. And especially when a beginner pitcher is doing something illegal, it’s probably better to hear about it from an umpire (the authority figure on the field) than from a coach who is usually a dad.

If I need to explain a rule; then it is to the coach. (in front of the player in many cases) but always addressing the coach. They need to correct it and be able to continue to correct it when I am not there.

 

[Rick M]

And this is what my original question was about and why 'coaching' was in quotation marks.

Coaching at the lower age levels definitely has to include an explanation on the rules. If you’re working with kids on where to stand when making a tag, they need to know when a tag is necessary. But you only have so many hours to reinforce this, and it’s much more important for a coach to spend time making sure that their footwork is sound, and that they can make a good overhand throw.

That’s where the umpire comes in, explaining that you have to make a tag when there is no force. Is that part of coaching? Absolutely. But it needs to be reinforced during a game. And it’s not necessary to stop the game and call the coach over.

At 8-10U, it’s a group effort between parents, coaches, and umpires to develop players who will continue to grow in the sport.


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[radness]

Not sure I can decipher where you are coming down on the question. In the first quote you seem to say that an umpire should NOT give any information about what his/her interpretation of a particular rule is (and how that rule will be enforced in that particular game). In the second, you sem to be saying it is alright to do so.

Let's take the 'simulate taking a sign' portion of the pitching rule: My pause may be longer or shorter than the umpire you saw the day before, would you, as a player or a coach, rather I made a quick comment that I needed a bit longer or call the illegal pitch as soon as I felt there was not a long enough pause? Is this 'coaching'? If it is the opponent that I am giving the information to, am I depriving you as the offense the illegal pitch?

Keep in mind, I am talking, in this case, about a pause not being 'long enough' for my interpretation of the rule (it may or may not be different than the interpretation of the last umpire you saw) and NOT a blatant violation like stepping onto the pitcher's plate with hands together and going right into the pitching motion.

You are moving goalposts around... apparently trying to make it appropriate to step over the line from umpire to coach.
Obviously you are not wanting to accept the point of conflict that your topic can put into every game. There is a difference between instructing players how to play their positions. And limiting what the umpire is supposed to do with the rulebook.

What I gleaned from your posts is you seem to reflect only on your own umpiring skills and not apply the differences and inconsistencies of other umpires.


@marriard great job communicating added interpretation!

As an umpire you shouldn't do either of these things. That includes in tball or 8u when the batter is facing the wrong way - I will happily call a coach in to fix it but I am not fixing it myself. And we are not playing if something is dangerous (that is part of the umpires role)

Not going to lie - my opinion over the years has changed; but if I really want to coach I should go be a coach. If I am the umpire - just umpire and the coach can teach what they want. Not my place. Coaches coach, players play, umpires umpire.


I would consider this bad umpiring.

I have however talked to a coach after a game and shown him why the catcher is making it harder for an umpire to call strikes. Had one last week that was determined to move into my eyeline after the release of every pitch which just made getting a good view of the zone tough. If you block the umpires view, I can't 'call the corner'


As an umpires assessor I would consider this coaching and would mark down an umpire for doing it.
I know, it happens all the time. That is just a lack of umpiring training or some umpire who thinks they know better (when they don't).


Early in the college season we have been told to talk to pitchers about the correct procedures signs, feet position, etc., if there is something wrong early in the game or if a new pitcher comes out. I always have a coach out to discuss it at the same time so we are on the same page. We then call it after that. And the expectation is that once we are a few games into the season we are just going to call it.

When there are technicalities in the rules, having their coach there if you need to say something works. But I am not doing it for straight rule plays such as leaving early or missing bases or dropped third strikes, etc, etc, etc.

Part of preventative umpiring is not getting into parts of the game that are not really officiating. I am not out there to 'prevent' a call that I don't like calling from happening by telling someone they are pushing the rules a little too far.

 

[El Oso]

There is a post currently in the rules forum about interference by the batter and it branched out into an umpire coaching a C on throwing down to 3B despite her worries of hitting the batter. I would like to ask the following question(s):

1) When, if ever, is it OK for an umpire to 'coach' one of YOUR players?

2) Does your answer to 1) depend on age/skill level of the teams?

3) Do/would you consider it coaching if, while the umpire is cleaning the plate, for instance, he tells C that she is not getting the corner pitch because of the way she is receiving the ball?

4) Would you consider it coaching if the BU told your runner that she is getting close to leaving early?

5) Do your answers change if the umpire is doing this with players from the other team?

There is a fine line between preventive umpiring and coaching, what an umpire may think of as preventing something from happening; telling a runner she is getting close to leaving early, or mentioning to a pitcher that she is getting close to an illegal pitch may be seen by a HC as inappropriate coaching of his players or the opponent. There is also a huge difference between these examples and telling a fielder that a runner missed a base or telling a pitcher that her mechanics are getting sloppy and that is why she is having trouble hitting her spots and "this" how to correct it.

1) When, if ever, is it OK for an umpire to 'coach' one of YOUR players? - Never

2) Does your answer to 1) depend on age/skill level of the teams? Nope. It's never acceptable. Period.

3) Do/would you consider it coaching if, while the umpire is cleaning the plate, for instance, he tells C that she is not getting the corner pitch because of the way she is receiving the ball? Yes I would and that is unacceptable. Call the game. Leave the talking to the coaches.

4) Would you consider it coaching if the BU told your runner that she is getting close to leaving early? Yes I would and that is unacceptable. Not your place. Call the game. Leave the talking to the coaches.

5) Do your answers change if the umpire is doing this with players from the other team? Nope. It's never acceptable.

 

[Rolling Hard]

That is something they are teaching a LOT less of these days.

There is still a lot of 'if the catcher catches it like a strike, call it a strike'' umpires and a lot of the 30+ year guys still teach it that way, but most of the umpire schools are trying to stop this.

Especially pro baseball where you run into the K-zone and other automated systems that now show you up big time when you try this. I have never called a game with a K-Zone tech, but I have done some training using it at a couple of camps. Learned a lot about what I was missing and what tendencies I had for calling pitches. Really enlightening.

Tell us more about what you learned please. I see (MLB/ College Softball/ TB) strikes called balls when the catcher sets up outside corner but the ball backs up (doesn't break) and pitch is a middle-in strike but because catcher set up outside and had to move her mitt considerably the umps call it a ball.