When should an umpire just be quiet?

[EdLovrich]

There is a post currently in the rules forum about interference by the batter and it branched out into an umpire coaching a C on throwing down to 3B despite her worries of hitting the batter. I would like to ask the following question(s):

1) When, if ever, is it OK for an umpire to 'coach' one of YOUR players?

2) Does your answer to 1) depend on age/skill level of the teams?

3) Do/would you consider it coaching if, while the umpire is cleaning the plate, for instance, he tells C that she is not getting the corner pitch because of the way she is receiving the ball?

4) Would you consider it coaching if the BU told your runner that she is getting close to leaving early?

5) Do your answers change if the umpire is doing this with players from the other team?

There is a fine line between preventive umpiring and coaching, what an umpire may think of as preventing something from happening; telling a runner she is getting close to leaving early, or mentioning to a pitcher that she is getting close to an illegal pitch may be seen by a HC as inappropriate coaching of his players or the opponent. There is also a huge difference between these examples and telling a fielder that a runner missed a base or telling a pitcher that her mechanics are getting sloppy and that is why she is having trouble hitting her spots and "this" how to correct it.

 

[chinamigarden]

Never want the ump to coach a player. If you feel it important tell the coach and let him decide what to tell the player.

Plus. As an umpire If you know a pitch is a strike, how the catcher receives it should not matter. It’s either a strike, or it isn’t.

 

[marriard]

There is a post currently in the rules forum about interference by the batter and it branched out into an umpire coaching a C on throwing down to 3B despite her worries of hitting the batter. I would like to ask the following question(s):

1) When, if ever, is it OK for an umpire to 'coach' one of YOUR players?
2) Does your answer to 1) depend on age/skill level of the teams?

As an umpire you shouldn't do either of these things. That includes in tball or 8u when the batter is facing the wrong way - I will happily call a coach in to fix it but I am not fixing it myself. And we are not playing if something is dangerous (that is part of the umpires role)

Not going to lie - my opinion over the years has changed; but if I really want to coach I should go be a coach. If I am the umpire - just umpire and the coach can teach what they want. Not my place. Coaches coach, players play, umpires umpire.

3) Do/would you consider it coaching if, while the umpire is cleaning the plate, for instance, he tells C that she is not getting the corner pitch because of the way she is receiving the ball?

I would consider this bad umpiring.

I have however talked to a coach after a game and shown him why the catcher is making it harder for an umpire to call strikes. Had one last week that was determined to move into my eyeline after the release of every pitch which just made getting a good view of the zone tough. If you block the umpires view, I can't 'call the corner'

4) Would you consider it coaching if the BU told your runner that she is getting close to leaving early?
5) Do your answers change if the umpire is doing this with players from the other team?

As an umpires assessor I would consider this coaching and would mark down an umpire for doing it.
I know, it happens all the time. That is just a lack of umpiring training or some umpire who thinks they know better (when they don't).

There is a fine line between preventive umpiring and coaching, what an umpire may think of as preventing something from happening; telling a runner she is getting close to leaving early, or mentioning to a pitcher that she is getting close to an illegal pitch may be seen by a HC as inappropriate coaching of his players or the opponent. There is also a huge difference between these examples and telling a fielder that a runner missed a base or telling a pitcher that her mechanics are getting sloppy and that is why she is having trouble hitting her spots and "this" how to correct it.

Early in the college season we have been told to talk to pitchers about the correct procedures signs, feet position, etc., if there is something wrong early in the game or if a new pitcher comes out. I always have a coach out to discuss it at the same time so we are on the same page. We then call it after that. And the expectation is that once we are a few games into the season we are just going to call it.

When there are technicalities in the rules, having their coach there if you need to say something works. But I am not doing it for straight rule plays such as leaving early or missing bases or dropped third strikes, etc, etc, etc.

Part of preventative umpiring is not getting into parts of the game that are not really officiating. I am not out there to 'prevent' a call that I don't like calling from happening by telling someone they are pushing the rules a little too far.

 

[EdLovrich]

As an umpire If you know a pitch is a strike, how the catcher receives it should not matter. It’s either a strike, or it isn’t.

I also know when it is a ball and the C is pulling it into the zone, then HC or P wonder why they are getting 'squeezed'. If I can fix this by a quiet, unobtrusive word to the C that we both know what is going on, do you still think it is a good idea to get Coach involved?

marriard, I agree, especially at the college level. If it is a rule change or POE and happening in the first or second series of the season, most coaches will know what is going on. However, I am going to be hesitant going over to a dugout or up the line to talk to one team's HC without informing the other HC what the convo was about. But if I can quietly let the battery know what I am seeing while cleaning the plate, or the pitching plate between innings, I might be able to avoid a situation. Is this any different than cleaning the plate and telling the C to go out and inform the P about where she is missing the zone (in codes that do not charge defensive conferences for this) rather than getting into that from 40+ feet away? Perhaps I am too much old school baseball, when sending the C to deliver a message to the P/HC/dugout was acceptable and need to learn new tricks.

 

[kennykozman!!]

Never want the ump to coach a player. If you feel it important tell the coach and let him decide what to tell the player.

Plus. As an umpire If you know a pitch is a strike, how the catcher receives it should not matter. It’s either a strike, or it isn’t.

I don't disagree however do you know what they teach in umpire camps?

If the catcher has palms up on a low pitch.....its a ball. Umpires actually look for that.
Another technique not in the rulebook.

I have told MANY catchers privately if they move up in the catchers box they will probably get more strikes called at lower levels.
Its a win-win.

The ideal situation for an umpire is to have ZERO conversation after the plate meeting. Its absolutely satisfying.

 

[marriard]

I also know when it is a ball and the C is pulling it into the zone, then HC or P wonder why they are getting 'squeezed'. If I can fix this by a quiet, unobtrusive word to the C that we both know what is going on, do you still think it is a good idea to get Coach involved?

There is nothing to fix. If the catcher isn't catching well or is doing something to 'make it look like a strike' or look like a ball; that is on them; not on you. Call the pitch.

Coaches don't get to discuss balls and strikes or more correctly how I am calling balls and strikes so I don't need to talk to them about that.

marriard, I agree, especially at the college level. If it is a rule change or POE and happening in the first or second series of the season, most coaches will know what is going on. However, I am going to be hesitant going over to a dugout or up the line to talk to one team's HC without informing the other HC what the convo was about. But if I can quietly let the battery know what I am seeing while cleaning the plate, or the pitching plate between innings, I might be able to avoid a situation. Is this any different than cleaning the plate and telling the C to go out and inform the P about where she is missing the zone (in codes that do not charge defensive conferences for this) rather than getting into that from 40+ feet away? Perhaps I am too much old school baseball, when sending the C to deliver a message to the P/HC/dugout was acceptable and need to learn new tricks.

If I need to talk to one coach and it is not obvious what I am talking about, I just go over to the other coach and tell them. Much better than playing a game of whispers with a catcher and hoping they get the message right.

Also I am not telling a pitcher where they are missing the the zone on any pitch or in general. I may comment on a particular pitch so the catcher know where --THAT-- pitch was and am I am happy to tell a catcher that if they ask, but I don't need to communicate directly or indirectly with the pitcher on what they are doing or need to correct. Good pitchers and catchers will figure it out on their own. If you say something along the lines of "She is too outside; she needs to bring it in" you have now set an expectation that if she does that you will call it a strike. I know it sounds trite; but now you are no longer just calling each pitch on its merits - you have added an additional layer of decision making and expectation which is not needed.

I had a catcher I talked to a coach about blocking the slot and my view and making it hard to see the zone. Had her again a few days later - she adjusted and was giving me a much better view... she asked me why I was still calling the inside pitch a ball now she had moved - so I told her "Well now I can see it better, it is still clearly a ball"

 

[marriard]

I don't disagree however do you know what they teach in umpire camps?

If the catcher has palms up on a low pitch.....its a ball. Umpires actually look for that.
Another technique not in the rulebook.

That is something they are teaching a LOT less of these days.

There is still a lot of 'if the catcher catches it like a strike, call it a strike'' umpires and a lot of the 30+ year guys still teach it that way, but most of the umpire schools are trying to stop this.

Especially pro baseball where you run into the K-zone and other automated systems that now show you up big time when you try this. I have never called a game with a K-Zone tech, but I have done some training using it at a couple of camps. Learned a lot about what I was missing and what tendencies I had for calling pitches. Really enlightening.

 

[kennykozman!!]

That is something they are teaching a LOT less of these days.

There is still a lot of 'if the catcher catches it like a strike, call it a strike'' umpires and a lot of the 30+ year guys still teach it that way, but most of the umpire schools are trying to stop this.

Especially pro baseball where you run into the K-zone and other automated systems that now show you up big time when you try this. I have never called a game with a K-Zone tech, but I have done some training using it at a couple of camps. Learned a lot about what I was missing and what tendencies I had for calling pitches. Really enlightening.

I would love to do some training with the automated systems. I agree the 30+ year guys are still calling pitches based on how they look from the dugout. Strike 3? No the catcher dropped it its a ball. Glad to hear the upcoming crews are changing for the better.

 

[radness]

Where in the rule book does it instruct the Umpire how to coach players?
And/or
If they should how and when?



@EdLovrich you have brought up conversation about your perspectives to umpiring before,
can you please acknowledge whether or not you recognize umpires officiate games differently?

Then can you recognize that since umpires officiate games differently that umpires would be 'coaching players differently' than you will be!

Possibly and certainly adding confusion and misinterpretation to a game that doesn't otherwise need that.

Not ok.

 

[EdLovrich]

can you please acknowledge whether or not you recognize umpires officiate games differently?

Not sure why someone is being called out by name in a forum discussion, other than to quote them, but yes, umpires call games differently. This does not mean they interpret or apply rules differently, but each might see a particular play differently. Of course, pitchers pitch differently in any given situation, coaches coach differently depending on many factors. This is a game played and officiated by humans and thankfully not by machines.