Very confused--need help

[Strike3dad]

I am so confused on how to approach my 10u pitchers lessons now.Her instructor teaches the arm straight,elbow pointing at the catcher finish for a fastball.She is struggling w/this style but when she throws it correct the ball drops off the table at the end of the pitch.1outta 10 are good pitches

When she throws the fastball like recommended by Bill Hillhouse in his videos(which is ir right?).Her speed and accuracy is off the charts for a 10u beginning pitcher but the ball spins like a bullet w/no movement.7 outta 10 are good pitches.

If the fast ball isn't being used after 14u isn't the movement pitch what you want to strive for long term.So the 6-12 spin is the right method correct because of the movement.

I am seriously struggling with this because she is almost game ready w/one method and light years away in the other.If i listen to the instructor obviously she says her way is best long term.But when i watch the videos( of ir like suggested of the best pitchers)they don't finish elbow at the catcher and we are having success in the backyard w/there release.

If my head is spinning with all this information i can only imagine what it is doing to my daughter.I need some clarity on this.It sure sounds and feels like the proper way long term is the ir method.Because of her immediate success at it.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

Your instructor needs to be flexible enough to adapt to what works for your DD. Here in Tucson the locals also teach Power L elbow, all the way up to the D1 program.

Many girls at the HS level will never have any other pitches besides FB and change up. Some may never have a change up. The levels of play vary so much throughout the country.

You know what your DD wants to achieve and what is acceptable in your area. Many small schools are lucky to have a pitcher at all. But, if you are in an area with good programs, then by 12U the girls need to be on their way to being top athletes.

I have a 12U student that wants nothing more than to pitch in rec. That is all the effort that she is going to put in. Getting her to even throw a change up is difficult. As long as she and her parents are happy, so am I.

But, it seems like you are not happy, so if the instructor won't let you achieve what you want, you are spinning your wheels.

 

[joemcq51]

You are no more confused then the rest of us. I have watched Bill's video and believe I understand what he is teaching. Here is what I am working on with my DD. When we are warming up, she uses a bent arm position for whip action (IR?). She still spins the fastball with a 12/6 spin. When her arm comes through the release, she is able to get the fingers behind the ball to cause that spin. Occasionally it will be more of an 11/5 spin. I read on this site about skipping a rock across a pond. It really made sense to me and my DD. If you think of the position your arm gets into the skip the rock, you would never throw it with a straight arm. Bill also covers the reasons you do not lock your elbow in the episodes on fastpitchTV.com. Honestly, I have spent countless hours looking on you tube and this site at video of the top pitchers. Every top level pitcher has one common piece. They all use arm whip and not a locked elbow. As far as follow through, I have not really heard any convincing argument for pointing the elbow. The best response I have for that is, the ball is already gone, so follow through really doesn't help the pitch any. Hope this helps a little. Probably just confused you even more. I am sure you will get plenty of responses with more technical answers. I am looking forward to reading them.

 

[sluggers]

I understand your pain. I went through the same thing with my DD 15 years ago before high speed video was available. The coaches emphasized the "flip release" that you describe. My DD tried to learn it that way. However, like your DD, my DD threw faster and more accurate if she didn't try to do the "flip release". It was a noticeable difference. So, I quit trying to correct her, and forgot about it.

In fact, up until about 2 years ago, I didn't understand IR. But, after the first IR discussion on this board, followed by reviewing tapes of baseball pitchers, softball pitchers, and golfers, there is no question that IR is fundamental.

If the fast ball isn't being used after 14u isn't the movement pitch what you want to strive for long term.

Two things to understand:

(A) There is more than a little braggadocio floating around the old ball park.
(B) The goal for a pitcher is to throw 75 MPH movement pitches where only a seam of the ball touches the strike zone.

So, take what is said with a grain of salt.

A pitcher prefers to throw only movement pitches. But, when a pitcher at any level needs to throw a strike, the pitcher is going to throw a fastball.

I've only been around the game for 25+ years now, so I've not seen everything...but I haven't seen a college pitcher get through a game without throwing a fastball. The idea that 14Us go out and throw entire games seems a little far fetched to me.

 

[Ken Krause]

In my opinion, people put way too much emphasis on a particular way of finishing the pitch, especially on a basic fastball. As long as the finish is long and loose it's fine. Forcing the elbow to point at the catcher is artificial. It's not bad for getting a pitcher to not stop her arm/hand at her side and flip or shove the ball out, but it's not a requirement for good pitching either. Is the PC trying to get her to follow through at all?

Watch what good pitchers do. They finish all kinds of different ways. Some finishing across their bodies. Some finish more straight out, with their hands toward the catcher and the wrist turning over to a palm-down position. Some finish with the hand palm up, and even moving away from the body a bit. The key is to come through, past the point of release rather than stopping at release. After that, who cares? Once the ball is out of your hand you can't influence it anymore.

The only exception to who cares, again in my opinion, is making the pitcher touch her shoulder with her hands. That over-stretches the elbow tendons and can cause pain and long-term problems. I'd avoid that. But other than that, let her finish be long, loose and natural. There are bigger fish to fry in the pitching motion.

 

[starsnuffer]

One thing to remember when you're working on mechanics, be it batting, pitching, throwing, ect. . . you need to focus on the FIRST thing that is broken, and work from there. Something as simple as a toe being turned out too much, a head cocked sideways, a glove lifted upside-down. . . all of these set in motion a chain reaction through the rest of the motion where all kinds of different things go wrong.

Sure, you can work backwards from the very last thing that broke, but you'll save yourself a lot of time to fix the first thing in the chain. When that is fixed, you'll often find that other mistakes correct themselves, and then you can move to the next "new first thing".

Since this is a relatively young pitcher who's having mixed success, I wouldn't focus on the very last thing (the follow through that happens after release). I'd instead look at her motion and see what's broken first. Post some videos up of her pitching and maybe we can help more.

-W

 

[Strike3dad]

Thanx amy and to all who respond.Im not bad mouthing the instructor.On the contrary she is a fantastic person and teacher (of the power elbow)But i dont know technique and what will transition up the softball ladder with less maintenance. So im trying to educate myself on the fly.That way i can better serve my daughter in achieving her own softball goals.

 

[Quake Softball]

In my opinion, people put way too much emphasis on a particular way of finishing the pitch, especially on a basic fastball. As long as the finish is long and loose it's fine. Forcing the elbow to point at the catcher is artificial. It's not bad for getting a pitcher to not stop her arm/hand at her side and flip or shove the ball out, but it's not a requirement for good pitching either. Is the PC trying to get her to follow through at all?

Watch what good pitchers do. They finish all kinds of different ways. Some finishing across their bodies. Some finish more straight out, with their hands toward the catcher and the wrist turning over to a palm-down position. Some finish with the hand palm up, and even moving away from the body a bit. The key is to come through, past the point of release rather than stopping at release. After that, who cares? Once the ball is out of your hand you can't influence it anymore.

The only exception to who cares, again in my opinion, is making the pitcher touch her shoulder with her hands. That over-stretches the elbow tendons and can cause pain and long-term problems. I'd avoid that. But other than that, let her finish be long, loose and natural. There are bigger fish to fry in the pitching motion.

Well, said.

 

[Quake Softball]

Thanx amy and to all who respond.Im not bad mouthing the instructor.On the contrary she is a fantastic person and teacher (of the power elbow)But i dont know technique and what will transition up the softball ladder with less maintenance. So im trying to educate myself on the fly.That way i can better serve my daughter in achieving her own softball goals.

I had the same kind of situation with my DD. We really liked the PC he is a great guy, but my DD got to a point and didn't progress. So, I did some looking and found a new pitching coach and my DD has really turned a corner. You have to do what is best for your DD!!!

 

[CoachKirk]

The best explaination of the follow through that I've heard was stated by Doug Gillis (nationally recognized pitching instructor, member of USA Men's fastpitch team and pitching coach at Missouri) at a recent clinic that I attended at Mizzou: "The follow through should look relaxed, natural and UN-COACHED". Don't sweat it - especially at 10U.