UMM.... Hillhouse take a look at this! Hello Elbow!?!

[radness]

One other problem with men's fastpitch is that it has to compete with men's slowpitch...men's slowpitch is ridiculously popular.

Lots of city league's!
Wonder the guesstimation of number of those teams?

 

[LEsoftballdad]

I'm 51 years old, and I grew up on Long Island. I played baseball my entire youth while some of my sisters played softball. I never heard of men's fastpitch until about two years ago. It does not exist near me, but there are thousands of weekend warriors playing SP hitting 450 bombs and drinking beer.

I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy the game, but it's hard to enjoy something you have no access to in the first place. From the little I've witnessed, it seems like an exciting game to watch. What we do have is more and more adult league baseball near me. I can go play in an under 60 league for baseball and have a bevy of teams from which to choose. Between those two games, I'm not sure if there would be enough players for men's fastpitch, especially since you wouldn't have anyone who knew how to pitch.

 

[radness]

without question, slow pitch effected men's fastpitch. A lot of guys who left baseball for whatever reason, want to leave the challenge of the game behind them. Not all but, a lot. There's others that want a challenge for their competitive spirit after leaving their #1 love, baseball. That said, I don't know of too many guys with access to both FP and SP that would pick SP over FP given the option. In many of those cases, these guys are unaware about fastpitch and don't know how to find a team.

Where I am originally from in Erie PA, another game came to be that hurt FP where I'm from was called "Modified pitch". This is a cross between FP and SP. And then there came to be 2 kinds of modified, 9man and 10man. The 9man game is basically slingshot pitching, no real restrictions except the windmill action is not allowed. 10man is basically bowling style pitching, with an extra outfielder. In fact, the rules and restrictions of 10 man are similar to what is taught in Hello Elbow pitching: lock the elbow, point the ball toward's 2nd base, must release the ball at the side of the body, cannot turn the shoulders/hips to generate power, etc.

I think there' s alot of reasons why the men's side of the game declined. No 1 thing did it. But it's not just men's softball that has declined, all sports are losing numbers. Drive by any park on a weekend and you'll see it empty.

How many men's fastpitch teams would you guess there are?

I really enjoyed the opportunity to play with the Long Beach Nighthawks. And get to play with the different rules of men's pitching.
Catching for men's pitching and catching for women's pitching the rules for women's pitching in my opinion are definitely restrictive. People would get freaked out if women's game could throw with the same pitching less' restrictive as men's.

 

[Ken B]

That's the movement of a 2-seam fastball, right?

I've always wondered why a 2-seam fastball wouldn't work in softball. I've seen people say they know someone who throws one, but that usually seems to be one of those "My 10u pitcher has 7 pitches" situations.

Anybody able to explain if you could get similar 2-seam movement with an underhand throw? And if so, wouldn't this be more effective than the "screwball" that's just an angled straight pitch?

It happens, but achieving it with any consistency and significant movement isn’t worth the effort.

 

[Hillhouse]

How many men's fastpitch teams would you guess there are?

I really enjoyed the opportunity to play with the Long Beach Nighthawks. And get to play with the different rules of men's pitching.
Catching for men's pitching and catching for women's pitching the rules for women's pitching in my opinion are definitely restrictive. People would get freaked out if women's game could throw with the same pitching less' restrictive as men's.

First, I'm envious that you got to even see the Nighthawks, let alone getting to play some ball with them. They are truly legendary and their history in the game is astounding. Now it should be said, they mostly played organizations (like ISC) instead of ASA. And back then, teams weren't allowed to play both ISC and ASA. The only time these top teams would meet would be in various invitational tournaments, and even that was very rare. So, Nighthawks (ISC) rarely played the ASA's version of the top team (Clearwater Bombers), which is a real shame.

It should also be said, the men's rules changed in the 1980's to the more liberal rules of today. In today's game of men's FP, it could be argued that the only pitching rule is: don't throw overhand! Women had 2 feet on the rubber up until about 3 years ago!! And even then, the organizations couldn't come together for a single rule. Egos of each group made them continue to have different rules. It's beyond stupid. The only thing they agreed on was allowing the pitcher to start with 1 foot on the rubber. IMO, all organizations (USA, USSSA, NSA, PGF, etc) should ONLY be doing whatever the college rule is. In a conversation a few months ago with Mike White of Texas, he told me he fully expects the college rule to change this year to allow leaping. Of course, there's still a 2 year period until that takes effect (college only does same year effect on rules involving safety, all others have a 2 year grace period). There's no question this is in direct result of pitchers clearly jumping and the controversy that follows.

The men's pitching rule change was a direct result of MONEY. ASA was seeing a big decline in men's softball registrations. And since it's all about money, they opened up the pitching rules to make it easier for guys to pitch. An unintended consequence of this was, any American kid wanting to pitch learned how to pitch under these rules, not the ISF/WBSC rules which still required 2 feet on the rubber and no jumping. A lot of the top American born pitchers could not pitch for USA in the late 1990's-2010's because they could not adapt to the 2 foot rule, or pitch without jumping. Personally, I had never pitched with 2 feet on rubber until my first season in New Zealand, 1990. It was like relearning how to pitch. And I got SHELLED for about the first 3 months of that season. But I learned to adapt and eventually could move between North American rules and International rules pretty seamlessly.

The women are different. I believe the pitchers have begun the leap, jump, crow hop, etc. because they still had 2 feet on the rubber yet, the offense was allowed to use $500 composite bats and hitting softballs with a polycore. Essentially an oversized golf ball. But for a long time, their response to the issue wasn't to open up the pitching rules, go back to cork center balls, etc.... their reply was for the pitcher to wear a mask. Nevermind that slappers can hit 300ft. HR's.... We must keep the pitchers with 2 feet on the rubber!!! The rules for women/girls ONLY changed in USA when the International rule changed.

International rules did allow for pitchers to leap in International softball, ala Cat Osterman. And countries can still make their own rules for within their own country, similar to how USA had different rules. Cat could not pitch in Japan the way many others have, and probably get very rich from doing it, because she would leap when pitching. She missed out on a lot of money. A friend and former teammate of mine, Andrew Kirkpatrick would never use rosin or Gorilla Gold when pitching here because in Japan neither was allowed. Pitchers could only use dirt and chalk from the field on their hands. So while every pitcher in men's tournaments would use foreign substances, he would never do that because Japan is where he made BIG BUCKS.

Once the college rule changes, I think everyone else will fall in line. And when they allow leaping, the umpires will be off the hook. I sincerely doubt they will have a distinction between leaping and crow hopping. I don't think it will matter to them if the pitcher crow hops or leaps, they'll no longer have to worry about if the pitcher leaves the ground. Yes, there's a big difference between leaping and crow hopping but, I don't think they'll worry about it. This will only become a big deal in college if our pitchers are called illegal at the WBSC events, then they'll have to make more changes and distinctions. That's just my opinion.

 

[cnardone]

The reason there are so many Slow pitch leagues / teams is that it is easy. Anyone can join and have fun. Growing up, modified WAS a popular sport in my area with lots of talent and sling shot pitchers as Bill described (no one in near Bill though). 20 years ago the quality pitchers were all grey beards. They are gone now.

From what I can tell, no one replaced that last generation. Pitching is hard, and being good at it is even harder. Starting to learn to pitch in your mid to late 20's ack!!. Being in the suburbs of NYC there are plenty of pitching coaches but I would need to drive 45 minutes or more to pay less than $80 and hour (if you can get a time slot). The single guys want that money for partying, and the married guys don't have it.

 

[radness]

Good read Mr.B

Once the college rule changes, I think everyone else will fall in line.

maybe but maybe not because s.b. not in line now

And when they allow leaping,

Folks will be
Some will be

the umpires will be off the hook. I sincerely doubt they will have a distinction between leaping and crow hopping. I don't think it will matter to them if the pitcher crow hops or leaps, they'll no longer have to worry about if the pitcher leaves the ground. Yes, there's a big difference between leaping and crow hopping but, I don't think they'll worry about it.

i'm of the 'let pitchers pitch' mindset

This will only become a big deal in college if our pitchers are called illegal at the WBSC events, then they'll have to make more changes and distinctions. That's just my opinion.

Yep the top influencing teams/coaches...

 

[Hillhouse]

Good read Mr.B

maybe but maybe not because s.b. not in line now

Folks will be
Some will be


i'm of the 'let pitchers pitch' mindset


Yep the top influencing teams/coaches...

we're on the same page Rad... no matter what the pitcher does, no matter how high and far they jump off the rubber, the ball still has to cross the plate for them to hit it.

 

[Rolling Hard]

Had an opposing pitcher this weekend that rocked back and then stepped 4 to 6 inches off the rubber and started her push from there. I will call it a mini replant. Asked the ump about it and he said, "yeah somethings wrong there but I am not sure how to call it. You guys are winning anyway."

 

[radness]

Had an opposing pitcher this weekend that rocked back and then stepped 4 to 6 inches off the rubber and started her push from there. I will call it a mini replant. Asked the ump about it and he said,

"yeah somethings wrong there but I am not sure how to call it. You guys are winning anyway."

Oy' Vey

Watched a pitcher that when she was bringing her arm forward was completely East West (Not underneath) upon arm comming forward then under delivering the pitch. Blatantly illegal pitch no call, no conversation. Look like a painful sidearm something or other going on
Maybe that was because their team was losing also?