UMM.... Hillhouse take a look at this! Hello Elbow!?!

[_MIA_]

I think Fernando Valenzuela was the last guy to use it with any regularity. Yes, I'm dating myself with that reference.

He’s the last guy that comes to my mind as well.

Edit: Around that same time Willie Hernandez threw one too I think..

 

[LEsoftballdad]

He’s the last guy that comes to my mind as well.

Edit: Around that same time Willie Hernandez threw one too I think..

Apparently, Jim Mecir was the last MLB player to throw it with any regularity.

 

[CoachJD]

Yeah. Balls can have screwball movement due to the abovementioned seam shifted wake but in baseball at least they aren’t called screwballs I don’t know if anybody throws a true screwball in baseball anymore.

That's the movement of a 2-seam fastball, right?

I've always wondered why a 2-seam fastball wouldn't work in softball. I've seen people say they know someone who throws one, but that usually seems to be one of those "My 10u pitcher has 7 pitches" situations.

Anybody able to explain if you could get similar 2-seam movement with an underhand throw? And if so, wouldn't this be more effective than the "screwball" that's just an angled straight pitch?

 

[_MIA_]

That's the movement of a 2-seam fastball, right?

I've always wondered why a 2-seam fastball wouldn't work in softball. I've seen people say they know someone who throws one, but that usually seems to be one of those "My 10u pitcher has 7 pitches" situations.

Anybody able to explain if you could get similar 2-seam movement with an underhand throw? And if so, wouldn't this be more effective than the "screwball" that's just an angled straight pitch?

Sinkers and changeups, if thrown in a certain way, benefit a lot from this effect. @sluggers posted this regarding a bullet spin “rise” from Garcia which has some movement in to a RH

 

[PJR202]

Sure. There are 2 movement pitches, forced movement and spin movement. So, the basic premise of throwing movement pitches in baseball or softball is the ball moves in the direction of it's spin. In softball, for example, a dropball should spin forward, a riseball SHOULD spin backward, a curve would spin sideways. It simply isn't possible for a RHP to make a ball spin in a manner that would curve inward to a RHB. The best a pitcher can hope for is bullet spin. Bullet spin keeps the ball straight. This is why bullets fired out of a gun don't curve. The spin keeps the bullet straight.

So, as a result of the inability to spin the ball to spin that way, RHP's are taught to step WAYYYY left and angle the pitch inside. So, the ball ends up inside on the RHB and people want to believe it's because the ball "screwed" inside. By this logic, a slowpitch pitcher throws a NASTY dropball because when he throws the ball up high, it has a sharp drop to it. It's almost the same thing!! Stepping to your left, and throwing the ball at an angle to the right isn't a spin pitch, it's simply throwing the ball inside.

Make sense?

I think so. I'm not well versed in spins yet, so for a long time I've been asking myself what the difference is between a curveball and a screwball.

So having read your reply, would I be correct in saying that a curveball can only be thrown outside to a RH batter from a RH pitcher (and vice versa) purely because of the design/position of the shoulder/arm/hand only being able to create sufficient spin and force to one direction? And the screwball is basically an attempt to do the opposite, which isn't possible for the above reason--so pitchers put themselves at an inside angle and throw with the same curve (and some drop) spin/direction?

 

[Hillhouse]

I think so. I'm not well versed in spins yet, so for a long time I've been asking myself what the difference is between a curveball and a screwball.

So having read your reply, would I be correct in saying that a curveball can only be thrown outside to a RH batter from a RH pitcher (and vice versa) purely because of the design/position of the shoulder/arm/hand only being able to create sufficient spin and force to one direction? And the screwball is basically an attempt to do the opposite, which isn't possible for the above reason--so pitchers put themselves at an inside angle and throw with the same curve (and some drop) spin/direction?

Yes and no. I think I know what you meant but, to make sure I'm clear so that nobody tells me how wrong I am...... curveballs don't have to be an outside pitch as you stated. Curves can be inside. On TV, the announcers like to call that a "backdoor curve" instead of just calling it what it is... a curveball inside. And when they label it as a "backdoor curve" it gives young pitchers yet another pitch they think they need to have, raising the amount of pitches they throw to be 8 or 9. SMH. So, instead of having a single pitch (curveball) they they located to different places (inside and outside) they are brainwashed into thinking a "backdoor curve" is a whole different pitch from any other curveball so it needs it's own signal or number on the armband. In case you haven't noticed, stuff like that drives me bonkers.

But the curve itself can only move in one direction. Any pitcher can make the ball spin sideways for a curve, and place that pitch inside or outside to a RHB. Or inside and outside to a LHB. But, what a pitcher cannot do is reverse that spin of a curve to go the other direction. It can't be done. So, when a pitcher steps wide left and angles the "screwball" inside to a RHB, the ball isn't curving inward. It's just angled. What gets the batter out is not the ball "curving" because it doesn't curve, they are getting the hitter out by throwing inside.

Please know, I'm also talking about a legit curve here. Not the kind where someone steps far to the right, then angles the ball over to the left calling it a curve. Just as stepping left and throwing to the right doesn't make a "screwball" stepping the opposite way and throwing to the other side doesn't make a curve. I see RHP's all the time who overstep their power line by 2 feet to the right, then twist themselves at the release so the pitch ends up outside to a RHB and they call that a curve. Little to no attention is paid to the actual ball rotation, they just throw it outside and think they have a curveball. It's not a curve. They simply stepped one way and threw it another.

For many pitchers, they then start believing they have a "drop curve" as a result. What I mean is, stepping over the powerline and throwing the ball outside is what they call a curve. And because they don't pay any attention to spinning the ball properly for the pitch to spin like a real curve, the ball usually comes out of their hand with a forward spin on it, similar to a drop or "fastball". So now the pitcher is stepping way over the line, and angling their curve, but the spin of the ball is straight and forward with is basically a dropball spin. So they see the ball end up way outside and it goes down so they erroneously believe they now have a drop curve. So now they have 10 pitches. lol

 

[PJR202]

Yes and no. I think I know what you meant but, to make sure I'm clear so that nobody tells me how wrong I am...... curveballs don't have to be an outside pitch as you stated. Curves can be inside. On TV, the announcers like to call that a "backdoor curve" instead of just calling it what it is... a curveball inside. And when they label it as a "backdoor curve" it gives young pitchers yet another pitch they think they need to have, raising the amount of pitches they throw to be 8 or 9. SMH. So, instead of having a single pitch (curveball) they they located to different places (inside and outside) they are brainwashed into thinking a "backdoor curve" is a whole different pitch from any other curveball so it needs it's own signal or number on the armband. In case you haven't noticed, stuff like that drives me bonkers.

But the curve itself can only move in one direction. Any pitcher can make the ball spin sideways for a curve, and place that pitch inside or outside to a RHB. Or inside and outside to a LHB. But, what a pitcher cannot do is reverse that spin of a curve to go the other direction. It can't be done. So, when a pitcher steps wide left and angles the "screwball" inside to a RHB, the ball isn't curving inward. It's just angled. What gets the batter out is not the ball "curving" because it doesn't curve, they are getting the hitter out by throwing inside.

Please know, I'm also talking about a legit curve here. Not the kind where someone steps far to the right, then angles the ball over to the left calling it a curve. Just as stepping left and throwing to the right doesn't make a "screwball" stepping the opposite way and throwing to the other side doesn't make a curve. I see RHP's all the time who overstep their power line by 2 feet to the right, then twist themselves at the release so the pitch ends up outside to a RHB and they call that a curve. Little to no attention is paid to the actual ball rotation, they just throw it outside and think they have a curveball. It's not a curve. They simply stepped one way and threw it another.

For many pitchers, they then start believing they have a "drop curve" as a result. What I mean is, stepping over the powerline and throwing the ball outside is what they call a curve. And because they don't pay any attention to spinning the ball properly for the pitch to spin like a real curve, the ball usually comes out of their hand with a forward spin on it, similar to a drop or "fastball". So now the pitcher is stepping way over the line, and angling their curve, but the spin of the ball is straight and forward with is basically a dropball spin. So they see the ball end up way outside and it goes down so they erroneously believe they now have a drop curve. So now they have 10 pitches. lol

Ok gotcha. Yeah I worded that poorly. I just meant the curve's direction in relation to a straight path. So a screwball isn't even a manipulated curve. Its just an angled pitch, sometimes with cool bullet spin. Thank you for the answer. I'm gonna have to change my daughter's business cards to show she only has 12 pitches instead of 13.

 

[sluggers]

Anybody able to explain if you could get similar 2-seam movement with an underhand throw? And if so, wouldn't this be more effective than the "screwball" that's just an angled straight pitch?

First, let's define "2-seam movement". According to MLB, a 2-seam fastball results from unequal pressure on the seams of the ball at release. (https://www.mlb.com/glossary/pitch-types/two-seam-fastball)

When equal pressure is applied to the seams, the ball's axis of rotation is perpendicular to the flight patch of the ball.

When unequal pressure is applied to the seams, the axis of rotation of the ball is not perpendicular to the flight path of the ball, and thus the seams are not symmetrical on the side of the ball going toward the plate. This means that the drag on one side of the ball is different from the drag on the other side of the ball, which causes some movement of the ball.

It is possible to throw such a pitch in fastpitch, and I have personally seen the pitch.

CAVEATS:

1. Girls tend to use a 3-finger grip while pro-baseball pitchers use a 2-finger grip. Throwing the pitch with a 3-finger grip is difficult because (duh) there are 3 fingers on the ball instead of 2.

2. The movement is only about 2 or 3 inches horizontally. Pitches with horizontal movement do not make the batter adjust the swing plane of the bat, and thus are easier to hit. By comparison, a well-throw drop or rise will appear to move by 6 to 12 inches vertically, and requires a much different swing plane than a swing plane for a fastball.

3. A girl may not have enough time to master the pitch. A girl's career lasts, at best, until she is 23YOA, and she plays softball on her free time. MLB pitchers who have mastered the 2-seamer tend to be in their mid-20s and have played pro-baseball full time since they were 18.

CONCLUSION: It is possible to throw something like baseball's 2-seam fastball in fastpitch. But, girls would be better served by learning a really good drop or a really good rise.

 

[CoachJD]

On TV, the announcers like to call that a "backdoor curve" instead of just calling it what it is... a curveball inside.

This comes from softball people trying to adopt baseball terms without having any understanding of what they mean.

A "Backdoor curve," by definition, is a pitch that starts outside and clips the outside corner. So a righty can only throw a backdoor curve to a lefty (and vice versa). Our description of the plate, with inside/outside, front door/back door, are fairly self explanatory. A backdoor curve "sneaks in through the back door," so so to speak, and it makes no sense whatsoever to use that phrasing on an inside corner pitch.

It kinda reminds me of softball people thinking a right-handed hitter can drag bunt. Again, not possible unless they're running to third base, since by definition dragging means you pull something behind you (think of a ball on a string that attaches to where it hit the bat). Only lefty hitters can do this, and until very, very recently, I never once in 30+ years ever heard anybody describe a RH hitter's bunt as a drag bunt, but a bunch of softball people who didn't really know what they were talking about don't understand the term and use it incorrectly.

 

[ArmWhip]

I always thought that a backdoor curve got it's name from the fact that it is supposed to hit the back of plate. It's starts off the plate, and then breaks to clip the back of the plate. So a right handed pitcher can throw one to a right handed hitter, the initial trajectory is inside.