Turn the barrel???

[jbooth]

Bold above, do you really think shoulder turning launches the hands? Or are you relaying what a MLB thinks when swinging?

The shoulders turning is what brings the hands toward the pitcher.

The bottom hand is connected to the front shoulder, and I'm sure that you do not believe in pulling the hands away from the shoulder early, so how do you think they get moved?

The only way they can go forward without pulling them forward with the arms, is to be pulled by the front shoulder moving out.

Do you see his hands and both shoulders moving in perfect synch?

 

[jbooth]

That would require instant action from the forearms hands and wrists to turn it....my understanding is that most her advocate pulling the handle and then throwing it which is the same as holding or maintaining a hinge angle and imparting great force late to bring the barrel around.

There is a huge difference that most here have obviously never experienced....their words and descriptions prove it.

I'm not advocating pulling the handle. The body moves the handle. Hip and shoulder rotation get the hands moving. You throw the barrel immediately after the shoulders start to turn.

 

[Howe]

Turning vs throwing is about this:

Turning = torque on the handle early to get the barrel into an arcish path and then arms just have to shorten or lengthen to adjust

Throwing = pulling the handle sans early torque and then applying lots of torque to get the barrel to the ball while the arms are trying to adjust (but much harder to because the early pull creates a predetermined swing path)

Turning = well timed effort (easier)

Throwing = mistimed effort (harder)

It's not unlike pushing someone on a swing - you can push someone much higher with a well timed push with lower effort compared to a mistimed push that would require way more effort...

I did an experiment with a sledge hammer where in one swing I pulled on the handle early (hold and throw) and in the other I torqued the handle early (turning) - the torqued swing produced a cleaner, quicker path then the pull swing....the torqued swing produced a feeling of just holding on compared to the pull swing feeling of too much effort...

When you look at the clip below - Which swing looks like I had more "plate coverage"? Which swing looks like it would only work for one location? Why does one swing look smooth and the other look choppy/snappy?

There's a turning and throwing.

The key is an uninterrupted hand-path

 

[jbooth]

Turning vs throwing is about this:

Turning = torque on the handle early to get the barrel into an arcish path and then arms just have to shorten or lengthen to adjust

Throwing = pulling the handle sans early torque and then applying lots of torque to get the barrel to the ball while the arms are trying to adjust (but much harder to because the early pull creates a predetermined swing path)

Turning = well timed effort (easier)

Throwing = mistimed effort (harder)

It's not unlike pushing someone on a swing - you can push someone much higher with a well timed push with lower effort compared to a mistimed push that would require way more effort...

I did an experiment with a sledge hammer where in one swing I pulled on the handle early (hold and throw) and in the other I torqued the handle early (turning) - the torqued swing produced a cleaner, quicker path then the pull swing....the torqued swing produced a feeling of just holding on compared to the pull swing feeling of too much effort...

When you look at the clip below - Which swing looks like I had more "plate coverage"? Which swing looks like it would only work for one location? Why does one swing look smooth and the other look choppy/snappy?

Just as I have had a problem properly understanding what "turn the barrel" means; it appears that you have a different understanding of what "throw the barrel" means.

Throwing the barrel uses what I would call early torque. The torque to throw starts right about here;

Your demo swing on the right will produce a higher acceleration rate and higher velocity at contact, than the one on the left because you are changing your hand path.

 

[Howe]

jb, stubbornness is your self infliction tool of choice, huh? I'm on board with "early torque", but it takes place in the hands when the barrel goes from "tipped to flat". I will agree that it's not a deliberate rearward move. It's a controlled feel of the barrel in the hands, while the hands are seeking the proper release location.

Yes, hand torque can be and is overbaked by some. For those folks, there is no awareness of a proper hinge angle. They do not understand what "hit the inside seam" really means. Well, some of the kids do, but the instructors don't....

 

[RayR]

Which only works off a tee where the ball is in a predetermined location....adjustment from an early bat speed swing will make it much easier to hit a moving ball...

Just as I have had a problem properly understanding what "turn the barrel" means; it appears that you have a different understanding of what "throw the barrel" means.

Throwing the barrel uses what I would call early torque. The torque to throw starts right about here;

Your demo swing on the right will produce a higher acceleration rate and higher velocity at contact, than the one on the left because you are changing your hand path.

 

[RayR]

I think deliberate is being misunderstood. Where other direction can the barrel tip go if the handle is being torqued by the hands/wrists/forearms as opposed to the handle being pulled (whether deliberately by the arms or by a shoulder turn)?

jb, stubbornness is your self infliction tool of choice, huh? I'm on board with "early torque", but it takes place in the hands when the barrel goes from "tipped to flat". I will agree that it's not a deliberate rearward move. It's a controlled feel of the barrel in the hands, while the hands are seeking the proper release location.

 

[tjintx]

The shoulders turning is what brings the hands toward the pitcher.

The bottom hand is connected to the front shoulder, and I'm sure that you do not believe in pulling the hands away from the shoulder early, so how do you think they get moved?

The only way they can go forward without pulling them forward with the arms, is to be pulled by the front shoulder moving out.

Do you see his hands and both shoulders moving in perfect synch?

Now look at this clip. The barrel is moving in a rearward arc yet his shoulders aren't going backwards!!!!

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yes, most of the ULL team does that move before they step in the box.

And, yes they all hit pretty well last season in spite of thinking differently than EVERY MLB hitter.

It could be that it helps them throw the barrel better, but it isn't the best way to do it. Maybe they could hit even better if they did it like the big boys.

Especially the biggest of all;

The wrists simply aren’t capable of powering the unhinging process as fast as the wrists can “be unhinged”.

This is important … that is assuming that the goal is to transfer maximum energy to the barrel.

The notion of powering contact with forced wrists is not good. The forced wrist tension in the wrists takes place well before contact, at swing initiation, and then the wrists take on more of a relaxed tension so that they become whipped.

It can be conceptually confusing. Folks generally ‘see’ that the wrist angle is relatively fixed at the start of the swing. In reality force needs to be applied with the wrists at the start of the swing if the wrist-cock angle is to be maintained at a constant value. That application of force relative to the wrists is temporary.

What should be noted is that in the swing of many high-end hitters that the top-hand wrist becomes ‘bent’ … ‘extended’ and ‘radially extended’ … at what is commonly referred to as the ‘lag position’. The top-hand wrist has in effect become ‘lagged’.

It isn’t the case that one keeps the wrists extremely relaxed from the start of the swing, then gets to the ‘lag position’, and then forces the wrists to be snapped with the wrists. It’s the other way around. Wrist tension was forceful at the start of the swing, and reduces so as to allow the ‘lagging’ of the top-hand wrist that is observed … it is about applying the proper tension levels to get the wrists to unhinge quickly.

Muscling the wrists through contact is not the answer.

 

[RayR]

If you can slow down the sledge swings - one swing has a moment where the sledge "floats" during the initial torque of the hands....the other swing there is just an immediate change of direction...