Turn the Barrel? Swing down?

[Fluid Fastpitch]

Why not both?

This isn't a what's the difference post, it's a there is no difference post - or rather they're not addressing the same components of the swing. So maybe this is a 'duh' moment to some of you, but after many buckets of popcorn watching the arguments between the TTB and Swing Down folks, and actually trying to figure out what they're talking about, I'm concluding that both are correct.

The 'swing down' proponents say that 'turning the barrel' is meaningless - which is true if you're just turning your arms and never delivering the barrel.
The TTB folks say 'swinging down' is a terrible pattern of cutting down through the zone. Which is true if you don't have any body action to get the barrel on the correct plane.

Here's my hot take: They're two sides of the same coin - Peanut Butter and Chocolate that combine to make dingers. I am gonna plant myself firmly balanced on the center of the turn the barrel vs. swing down fence. If the shaft is kept tight to the shoulder until you release the barrel and the posture and sequence is correct, then it's feel vs. real. Whichever way you want to think about it, whatever works for you. Some folks feel turning the barrel as a stronger component and delivering the barrel as a reaction. Some people feel swinging down strongly and everything else is a reaction to that. To me, with posture and sequence correct both swings look remarkably similar at full speed.

QED:
Feel (LC feels swing down):

Real (But there are also turn the barrel components in her swing):

 

[Fluid Fastpitch]

I wanted to unpack this post a bit..

this type of thinking is why there is so much dragging of the barrel in youth hitting. If you wait to get the back arm into positiion, you’re late or you’re dragging. The thought of the hips lead the hands is inaccurate when it comes to what the feel should be. It does look this way on video. But isn’t what happens. The elbow slot or hip slot which some see as a prep to ‘rotate’. What they don’t understand is the arm is starting to ‘throw’ the barrel at this point. And this happens before the hips open. Mind blown? Lol.

View attachment 24290

The initial opening of the hips isn’t even forced applied. It’s the hands getting the hips out of the way. the hips open when and where they need to. It is a weight shift and a space clearance thing. So in reality the pros don’t lead with the hips and then hands. They actually lead w the hands. Tatis hands are positioning w a closed lower half right? What gives? To me, that intent is the secret sauce. If you’re waiting to TTB or you let rotation power the swing you’re late. Rotation and the hands should go together.

it’s so similar to throwing that, this shouldnt even be a point of debate. You don’t ‘ open’ the hips to throw. The throwing arm is in full control of how the body transfers and releases energy. Everything is timed off the back arm. It’s the same exact thing when you hit. If the intent is to open the hips first then throw the barrel, good luck. You will cheat to inside pitches and be early to outside pitches. Or at best be a one pitch hitter w a long swing.

View attachment 24291

swing launch is the point of no return. Which isn’t when the hips open. It’s when the rear arm extends. See pujols stop his swing? The recoil was the rear arm extending. That is launch.

 

[Work=wins]

Let me show the rotate and lag and swing down examples.

 

[Fluid Fastpitch]

One more I'd like to unpack.

It’s more than swing down. It’s launching the ‘swing’ deep and as early as possible at the perceived contact point. Now what does launch mean to you? The extension of the rear arm is what it is to me.

View attachment 24280

Well, that's interesting.
So moving beyond 'swing down' vs. 'turn the barrel' (which I always took to be a bat path disagreement)...
The rear arm straightening it a component of releasing the barrel to me.
I'm with clem - From launch position (after stride to toe touch) the actual swing initiates with the hips, the upper body goes along for the ride (simplification), and the barrel gets released somewhere along the way (varying depending on pitch location, timing).

Releasing the barrel =like throwing a frisbee - the wrists through the arms explode to extension. That would be when the rear arm gets long to me.

Getting the rear arm straight without allowing the wrist snap sounds like a pushing action to me?

 

[Work=wins]

One more I'd like to unpack.

Is this a question? Not sure where you want me to go w this. Please explain

 

[Fluid Fastpitch]

Work=wins said:
this type of thinking is why there is so much dragging of the barrel in youth hitting. If you wait to get the back arm into positiion, you’re late or you’re dragging. The thought of the hips lead the hands is inaccurate when it comes to what the feel should be. It does look this way on video. But isn’t what happens. The elbow slot or hip slot which some see as a prep to ‘rotate’. What they don’t understand is the arm is starting to ‘throw’ the barrel at this point. And this happens before the hips open. Mind blown? Lol.

Sorry, had to make dinner for the fam.

Cards on the table - I don't claim to be a TTB expert, or even that I align 100% with TTB. I will say that 'turning the barrel' aligns closer to what I feel in my swing than 'swing down' does. But, I recognize that everybody is different and a good coach needs to be able to intuit what the player is feeling and give them cues that make sense to them.


You said "Now what does launch mean to you? The extension of the rear arm is what it is to me." You're saying that you feel the rear arm as an initiating action in your swing? I will say that I don't feel that - I feel the coil through my core and hips as the initiating action. I just took slow mo of myself hitting off the tee, and I see my hands doing a similar action as I'm releasing the barrel, but I don't feel it as the primary driver.

 

[Work=wins]

Sorry, had to make dinner for the fam.

Cards on the table - I don't claim to be a TTB expert, or even that I align 100% with TTB. I will say that 'turning the barrel' aligns closer to what I feel in my swing than 'swing down' does. But, I recognize that everybody is different and a good coach needs to be able to intuit what the player is feeling and give them cues that make sense to them.


You said "Now what does launch mean to you? The extension of the rear arm is what it is to me." You're saying that you feel the rear arm as an initiating action in your swing? I will say that I don't feel that - I feel the coil through my core and hips as the initiating action. I just took slow mo of myself hitting off the tee, and I see my hands doing a similar action as I'm releasing the barrel, but I don't feel it as the primary driver.

I feel the same, would the initiation and the actual launch be different? I think it is. If not it is drag. The feel should be like the hands are beating the hips to the ball. On video they’re not. But the feel is that they are.

 

[Fluid Fastpitch]

I feel the same, would the initiation and the actual launch be different? I think it is. If not it is drag. The feel should be like the hands are beating the hips to the ball. On video they’re not. But the feel is that they are.

Do you believe the rear arm action to be the primary component of swing down? Not the way you think of the bat path? Because that may be a major disconnect on what the TTB vs. Swing Down argument is about.

 

[Fluid Fastpitch]

Regarding slot - If you need to pull out of posture to clear room for the elbows, you've got drag. You may or may not be turning the barrel - you may just be dragging the bat. You can definitely turn the barrel without letting the elbow get ahead of the hands (which is how I'd primarily define drag. Maybe you think of drag differently?)

 

[Fluid Fastpitch]

One more before I get off for the night. Here's Josh Cathcart in a remarkably timely video acknowledging that TTB taught wrong can result in pulling off. Just dropping it here.