Hip/Shoulder Separation and Backside Scrunch

[efastball]

" the top half is more 'scrunching' and pulling the front shoulder up "

After toe touch, yes the shoulders do 'scrunch'. But the important part is not that the front shoulder goes up, it's the rear shoulder to hip distance is scrunched. The timing and distance of this is one of the differences in high level and youth swings.

Many do not scrunch, so they spin (shoulder rotates, but it does not go down) and lunge forward. Most do not go down far enough. Almost every swing posted here, the hitter does not take their back elbow down far enough.

 

[CoachYodaD]

From your question, I think what you are looking for is this...

After stride, the first movement for launch is the rear knee turns inward toward the front leg. As the knee begins turning, the rear elbow slides into the slot, and the hips rotate and pull the torso. For explosive power or to generate barrel speed, we try to hold the shoulders back as long as we can, allowing the hips to force the turn. i.e. The rubber band effect.

On contact, we force the hands away from the body (i.e full extension) and through the ball.

I think a true good swing is a combination of rotation, linear, rotation. We rotate to contact, linear through the ball, and finish rotating.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Rolling Hard]

Thank you, what is the answer to the bold above?

I think it can be different firing for different swing styles/feels. Coach Yoda said, " first movement for launch is the rear knee turns inward toward the front leg." Some hitters probably hit that way. I feel that once the hitter strides/stretched and gets to launch the obliques fire first which then pulls the rear heel off the ground. I think a lot of it has to do with which hand dominates the swing. I am bottom hand dominate. Like throwing a frisbee. If you are top hand dominate you are going to feel like you are throwing a ball sidearm but don't let the elbow get in front of your hands (drag). If you could use both hands equally you would reach nirvana.
Also, the idea that the hand fire first and everything else follows or fires in order may be a feel for an experienced hitter that works for them. But if you told and 11 year old girl to fire her hands first she is going to swing with her arms and its not going to be pretty.

 

[Work=wins]

Close the gaps of separation. That’s what matters. scrunch? What? Are we talking about posture? Early hip extension?

 

[fanboi22]

" the top half is more 'scrunching' and pulling the front shoulder up "

After toe touch, yes the shoulders do 'scrunch'. But the important part is not that the front shoulder goes up, it's the rear shoulder to hip distance is scrunched. The timing and distance of this is one of the differences in high level and youth swings.

Many do not scrunch, so they spin (shoulder rotates, but it does not go down) and lunge forward. Most do not go down far enough. Almost every swing posted here, the hitter does not take their back elbow down far enough.

Thanks for the reply. Agreed. I think the 'timing and distance' is the real question i have. Was curious why the Justin stone progression has been used as an example to fire hips first, seems like everyone was saying to fire hips and wait for the top to get snapped forward.

 

[fanboi22]

Close the gaps of separation. That’s what matters. scrunch? What? Are we talking about posture? Early hip extension?

View attachment 21962

No, i am asking specifically if anyone condones the hips firing first to 'pull' the top thru. Meaning, is the 'separation' people speak of a 'rubber band' effect of the top waiting to get pulled forward.

What do you mean, 'close the gaps of separation'?

 

[fanboi22]

From your question, I think what you are looking for is this...

After stride, the first movement for launch is the rear knee turns inward toward the front leg. As the knee begins turning, the rear elbow slides into the slot, and the hips rotate and pull the torso. For explosive power or to generate barrel speed, we try to hold the shoulders back as long as we can, allowing the hips to force the turn. i.e. The rubber band effect.

On contact, we force the hands away from the body (i.e full extension) and through the ball.

I think a true good swing is a combination of rotation, linear, rotation. We rotate to contact, linear through the ball, and finish rotating.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks for the reply. My question was more for your comment on the rubber band effect. When i try to leave the top half behind and swing the hips to 'pull' the top thru, i feel way less powerful. When i launch everything together it feels stronger. Not curious about all the little nuances, just when do the top and bottom muscles fire.

I believe the separation being talked about is more of a backward rotating top half until launch when everything fires at the same time. And there is an indiscernible 'lag' before everything which is firing at the same time can stop and make the top go forward. This is why i showed the KVest data to show the top going negative in rotation then forward after launch.

 

[Work=wins]

No, i am asking specifically if anyone condones the hips firing first to 'pull' the top thru. Meaning, is the 'separation' people speak of a 'rubber band' effect of the top waiting to get pulled forward.

What do you mean, 'close the gaps of separation'?

thats all that maters. everyone gets some separation when they stride. But the ability to stabilize the lower so the upper can catch up at contact is the closing the gaps of separation.

Separation


closing the gap



balance, posture and sequencing are the contributors to closing the gap. The upper fires on top of the lower. Look how little Teds legs rotate. That’s using the ground correctly. The hips are the power plug to the upper. That’s why we don’t rotate them early. The hips(glutes really)contribute power closer to contact. See the hips extend going into contact? before then they transfer energy to the upper. Posture, sequencing and balance makes this happen.

 

[Work=wins]

close the gap

 

[fanboi22]

thats all that maters. everyone gets some separation when they stride. But the ability to stabilize the lower so the upper can catch up at contact is the closing the gaps of separation.

Separation
View attachment 21963

closing the gap

View attachment 21964

balance, posture and sequencing are the contributors to closing the gap. The upper fires on top of the lower. Look how little Teds legs rotate. That’s using the ground correctly. The hips are the power plug to the upper. That’s why we don’t rotate them early. The hips(glutes really)contribute power closer to contact. See the hips extend going into contact? before then they transfer energy to the upper. Posture, sequencing and balance makes this happen.

So then, don't try to fire the hips or turn the middle of your body like J Stone progression drill?