Swinging at first pitch vs working the count

[CoogansBluff]

Look at their BB rates they are all very high. They all have pretty good OBP despite poor average. The top 7 also have excellent iSLG (isolated slugging is SLG - AVE -- that is a lot of their hits are for extra bases)

That's a good point. You are correct. I've replaced their batting averages below with OPS+. It's kinda like an IQ score where 100 is average, so all but one are better than average in their overall production/value as hitters. If your starting lineup had the OPS+ numbers of these guys, you'd probably lead the league in runs scored.

Another thing to consider, though, is that the pitches that you see is also dictated to some extent by the pitcher. A pitcher isn't going to throw Joe Mauer as many strikes as he throws a .220 shortstop with no power. So while Mauer is patient, so are the pitchers when facing him. Also, guys like Adam Dunn see fewer good pitches because of their power threat, but also because they swing and miss a lot. A good contact hitter may see fewer pitches because when he swings, he tends to make contact. I'd love to see the number of pitches that were taken (which would subtract swings and misses, foul balls, etc.)

116 – Mike Napoli
105 – Adam Dunn
154 - Jason Kipnis
137 - Mark Reynolds
108 – Josh Willingham
143 – Joe Mauer
125 – Jose Bautista
89 – Brian Dozier
112 – Brett Gardner

 

[CoogansBluff]

And finally, one difference between MLB and travel ball fastpitch is the ability to make contact. In the National League right now, 1 in every 5 plate appearances ends in a strikeout. In the SEC last season, it was 1 in 6 plate appearances, similar, but a little better.

But on our travel team the past two seasons, only 1 in 8 plate appearances ended in a strikeout. I assume that's typical, but I'm sure it depends a little on the age and level of play.

Not sure what that means in this discussion, but my gut says that it is significant. One one hand, you might argue that batters should be more selective in travel ball since it's a little easier to put the ball in play and therefore batting w/ 2 strikes is not as dangerous as in MLB. But on the other hand, a strikeout is basically just another out in MLB, whereas avoiding a strikeout in travel ball is more valuable because of the higher chance of drawing a fielding error or moving a runner (since it's only 60 feet).

 

[ncgolf]

And finally, one difference between MLB and travel ball fastpitch is the ability to make contact. In the National League right now, 1 in every 5 plate appearances ends in a strikeout. In the SEC last season, it was 1 in 6 plate appearances, similar, but a little better.

But on our travel team the past two seasons, only 1 in 8 plate appearances ended in a strikeout. I assume that's typical, but I'm sure it depends a little on the age and level of play.

Not sure what that means in this discussion, but my gut says that it is significant. One one hand, you might argue that batters should be more selective in travel ball since it's a little easier to put the ball in play and therefore batting w/ 2 strikes is not as dangerous as in MLB. But on the other hand, a strikeout is basically just another out in MLB, whereas avoiding a strikeout in travel ball is more valuable because of the higher chance of drawing a fielding error or moving a runner (since it's only 60 feet).

I agree .. we had only 6 k's in 7 games. It's anecdotal but even the groundouts were hit harder with more pitches seen. That coincides with your theory of increased errors due to harder hit balls translating into more base runners and thus more runs. The first pitch aggressive outs were the type where a 10-12u player should make the play.

Eliminating the fear of the K is key for these girls ... IMO .. making good hard quality contact is the way to go IMO again.

 

[cmustangsfp]

What I can't stand is the coaches that mandate to take every pitch until they throw a strike. Seen too many girls tense up and start to swing and then pull back because they remember their coach gave them the take sign. Then the girls get nervous with one strike on them and end up striking out. Bad coaching in my opinion. I much prefer to give them the leeway to swing if they like it.

 

[ncgolf]

What I can't stand is the coaches that mandate to take every pitch until they throw a strike. Seen too many girls tense up and start to swing and then pull back because they remember their coach gave them the take sign. Then the girls get nervous with one strike on them and end up striking out. Bad coaching in my opinion. I much prefer to give them the leeway to swing if they like it.

I agree ... a coach can't coach each girl the same. At this age some are more advanced and some are not, those types of rules teach nothing about the game.

My regret in this was when I kept the books I noticed after two games the pattern so I mentioned what I saw to the coach and that maybe just some pointing out what is occurring. He translated this into don't swing until you get a strike .. I could not believe it when my DD told me what he said. That said I confirmed what I already knew about his ability as a coach. I felt horrible for the girls and how frustrated some became.

You are absolutely correct that those sorts of rules are counter productive and teach nothing.

 

[obbay]

What I can't stand is the coaches that mandate to take every pitch until they throw a strike.

I admit I have done this- not every time or in every game, did it in an effort to make the batters take a good look at what was being pitched and learn how to take a pitch. I wanted my players to get familiar with seeing as many pitches as possible at their first At-Bat and get used to being up with a count. too many batters were in too much of a hurry to get a hit. sometimes it works but often it only resulted in a batter standing flatfooted with the bat on her shoulder until she heard "strike"- in which case I know she has some learnin' to do (so it's successful as a teaching tool in that respect)

a coach can't coach each girl the same

truer words have never been spoken, but it is hard to give each player exactly the info they need.

 

[ncgolf]

truer words have never been spoken, but it is hard to give each player exactly the info they need.

That is the art of coaching and probably the difference maker for being a real successful teacher. Each girls wants to be special and by knowing something unique about each and that you are really committed to them as a person .. they do respond.

It's not easy but I don't think it's hard either. A coach has to know how each girl incrementally is improving and how those improvements help contribute to team success.

 

[Rocketech1]

As a pitcher you want to get ahead of the batter early in the count so its important to get a first pitch strike any way you can. Once its 0-1, you have a lot of options on what the next pitch will be and the odds of getting the batter out increases. If the batter was laying off of the first pitch, now they are looking to swing away because they don't want to be down 0-2.

I have always told my DD to be aggressive at the plate and if she sees a pitch she likes, go after it. Most times the best pitch of the entire at-bat is the first pitch thrown (for the above reason). DDs average pitches seen per at-bat is less than 3 and has the third best BA and OB% on her team. This approach seems to work for her.

 

[obbay]

This approach seems to work for her.

Yep- they're not all the same. I can say the same about DD#1 except she typically sees 5 or more pitches at bat, often has 2 strikes on her before hitting but typically has no more than 2 Ks per season.
From what you have described, your daughter is a more skilled hitter than most of the players I have worked with. If your DD had a coach that made her take until she had 1 or 2 strikes, she probably wouldn't like it any more than my DD likes it when she is told in no uncertain terms to go for the first pitch, period. Which brings us back to the earlier statement that you can't coach them all the same.

Based on your first comment -is your DD a pitcher?

 

[ncgolf]

As a pitcher you want to get ahead of the batter early in the count so its important to get a first pitch strike any way you can. Once its 0-1, you have a lot of options on what the next pitch will be and the odds of getting the batter out increases. If the batter was laying off of the first pitch, now they are looking to swing away because they don't want to be down 0-2.

I have always told my DD to be aggressive at the plate and if she sees a pitch she likes, go after it. Most times the best pitch of the entire at-bat is the first pitch thrown (for the above reason). DDs average pitches seen per at-bat is less than 3 and has the third best BA and OB% on her team. This approach seems to work for her.

Why mess with success. The nice thing about this is if she slumps you may have a viable strategy to get her back to her more natural way. It's all about how one is able to make the adjustments necessary along the way.