Scoring Question - SAC vs FC

[craZsoftballm0m]

Hi - Just trying to find out how you would score something in the book.

R1 on 3, R2 on 2, 1st base empty. No outs.

BR bunts (don't know the signs if it's a sac bunt or bunt for hit). F1 fields the ball checks R1 then fires to 1st. BR beats the throw.

Bases now loaded, still no outs.

FC or SAC (runner safe) for the books?

Thanks

 

[mtnbama]

Actually, you would score it a hit.

It's not a sac because no baserunners advanced.

It's not a fielder's choice because a throw was made. (it's a fielder's choice if the fielder checks the runner, but then makes no throw).

 

[David Carter]

Defensive indifference is basically a sub category of a fielders choice. However to score a fielders choice the defensive has to display "indifference to the runners advance" once the fielder throws the ball in an attempt to get the BR out their is no indifference or FC available to the scorekeeper, they BR is either out or safe.

Bottomline: I would score this a hit every time.

 

[JAD]

Since the runner reached 1st I would score it a hit or 'defensive indifference' depending on how technical you want to get with your scorebook. Had the batter been thrown out at 1st I would have scored it as a SAC in our book since we will use that play to try to score the run if the fielder throws to 1st.

 

[craZsoftballm0m]

Okay - this sounds great....and i apprecaite the feedback... now lets change the outcome a little bit.

R1 on 3, R2 on 2, BR bunts

F1 fields the bunt checks R1, fakes the thrown to 1st, and then throws the ball to F5 ( or F6 depending on coverage) to try to pick off the R1. Obviously BR is safe at 1.

How do you score it if - A) R1 IS picked off (results in R2 on 2 and BR at 1st)

B) R1 IS NOT picked off (results bases loaded)

Thanks again!!!

 

[cshilt]

Okay - this sounds great....and i apprecaite the feedback... now lets change the outcome a little bit.

R1 on 3, R2 on 2, BR bunts

F1 fields the bunt checks R1, fakes the thrown to 1st, and then throws the ball to F5 ( or F6 depending on coverage) to try to pick off the R1. Obviously BR is safe at 1.

How do you score it if - A) R1 IS picked off (results in R2 on 2 and BR at 1st)

B) R1 IS NOT picked off (results bases loaded)

Thanks again!!!

Probably a FC, but let's change the situation again...

R1 on 3, R2 on 2, BR bunts

The bunt is well placed and when F1 fields the bunt the BR is only a couple steps from 1B. F1 fakes a throw and tries to pick off R1.

I score a hit, as I believe that had the throw been made the BR would have been safe.

Just playing devils advocate a little, as you can see there is some discretion here and you have to make a judgement call.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_Manuals/Baseball/baseball_softball_scorebook.pdf

 

[craZsoftballm0m]

So cshilt - based on the link you sent, the fact that F1 checked the runner and made a late throw, makes the original play an FC according to #4. The only time it wouldn't be considered a FC, regardless of the results is if F1 fielded the ball and threw immediately to 1st and BR beat the throw. (i.e. she bunt for a hit because she is really fast)..... is that what you think?


FIELDER’S CHOICE
SECTION 7. Afielder’s choice is credited in the following situations:
a. To a batter:
1. When a ball is put in play and any preceding runner is forced out on the hit or would
have been out had no error occurred.
2. When a ball is put in play and the lead runner is safe but the batter would have been
out had the initial play gone to first base.
3. When a ball is put in play and any preceding runner, who is forced to advance, is
called out on an appeal for missing the first base to which she was advancing.
4. When a runner is checked and no throw or a late throw is made, but the runner
would have been out had the initial play gone to first base.

 

[JAD]

As a coach, if I ask a girl to lay down a bunt trying to score a runner from 3rd and she gets the bunt down I am going to give her a SAC or a hit, REGARDLESS of the outcome of the play. I am NOT going to penalize her batting average because she is being a team player. These kind of subjective questions are the reason stats can be very misleading. If you have 10 different people keep score of a game, there will be 10 different variations of the same game.....I was sitting in the stands next a lady keeping the book for a high school game last year when the batter hit an easy fly ball to the left fielder. The left fielder broke in on the ball and misjudged it, allowing the ball to land 3 feet behind her. The lady keeping the book gave the batter a 'hit' because she said the outfielder did not touch the ball......LOL

 

[David Carter]

So cshilt - based on the link you sent, the fact that F1 checked the runner and made a late throw, makes the original play an FC according to #4. The only time it wouldn't be considered a FC, regardless of the results is if F1 fielded the ball and threw immediately to 1st and BR beat the throw. (i.e. she bunt for a hit because she is really fast)..... is that what you think?


FIELDER’S CHOICE
SECTION 7. Afielder’s choice is credited in the following situations:
a. To a batter:
1. When a ball is put in play and any preceding runner is forced out on the hit or would
have been out had no error occurred.
2. When a ball is put in play and the lead runner is safe but the batter would have been
out had the initial play gone to first base.
3. When a ball is put in play and any preceding runner, who is forced to advance, is
called out on an appeal for missing the first base to which she was advancing.
4. When a runner is checked and no throw or a late throw is made, but the runner
would have been out had the initial play gone to first base.

Basically this is a judgement call however, in softball unlike baseball there are numerous infield hits and a good slap hit or bunt when the runner is safe at first will be called a hit the vast majority of the time throw or no throw. In other words looking at number four on the list above the benefit is usually given to the BR that they would have been safe on the initial play. I think in baseball the assumption is usually an out would have been made unless it is a really good bunt or deep in the hole..... my two cents

 

[cshilt]

So cshilt - based on the link you sent, the fact that F1 checked the runner and made a late throw, makes the original play an FC according to #4. The only time it wouldn't be considered a FC, regardless of the results is if F1 fielded the ball and threw immediately to 1st and BR beat the throw. (i.e. she bunt for a hit because she is really fast)..... is that what you think?

Checking the runner first then making a late throw would be a FC. Still a judgement call, however.

When considering a play being made on the BR, the question becomes would a routine play have resulted in a putout. If there was an off-balance throw that got away from 1B, then it's probably a hit.